Jason rules.
Phinney thinks Long term fasting no benefits
camtosh
(Cheryl Meyers)
#104
And here is this weekās Virta health blog, on protein, by Marlia Braun. Again it mentions fasting:
_When protein is not consumed in adequate amounts daily, the body turns to lean tissue to meet its protein needs. This happens more rapidly when meals are skipped for a prolonged period (greater than 24 hours). _
http://blog.virtahealth.com/protein-on-low-carb-ketogenic-diet/
circesdad
(Mel Soule)
#105
Protein adequacy, fasting and religion seem close cousins these days. From their blog
To determine if youāre eating too much protein, run an experiment. Establish a baseline pattern by tracking your protein intake and testing your biomarkers. Then reduce your protein portion evenly between meals and reassess biomarkers. Do your blood glucose and ketone readings improve or stay the same? If your blood glucose decreases and your ketone count increases after reducing your protein intake, you are likely eating too much protein. This test can help you personalize your protein goal.
So eat by your blood sugar reading. @Marty_Kendall brilliant advice IMHO what think you Marty?
VLC.MD
(VLC.MD)
#106
Spreading out your consumption also gives you more time to digest protein and avoid feeling sluggish. For example, if your daily protein goal is 16 ounces, you could start by having 4 ounces at 3 meals and 2 ounces at 2 SNACKS. Feedback from your biomarkers can help guide changes.
Did they just say the S word ?
ewww.
Snacking is a dangerous game. Beware Ketoāers.
N1coleS
(Nicole Sawchuk)
#107
His humour about it all kills me! It is true though. We are all allowed our opinion.
Just like Dr Fung, I am disappointed in Phinney āapparentā fear mongering on fasting. I have been fasting for awhile with so much success and I grew scared after reading his post!
With that said, I am grateful for the discussion thatās been on thread. Its given me so much to think about!
infromsea
(Tim W)
#108
Great call!
Data! Data! Data! It makes a difference!
I was feeling āscatter brainedā the other day, wasnāt sure why. I took a quick glucose reading, it was high (for me). That lead me down the āwhat did I eat last nightā rabbit hole. Turns out, one of the lagers I enjoyed was much higher in carbs than I realized.
If I did not have the meter, Iād still be guessing.
infromsea
(Tim W)
#109
After reading just about anything Jason Fung has written and listened to his podcasts (the old ones too) I must admit, Iām smitten.
Heās making a difference in peopleās lives. Heās changed mine, my wives and, through my wife, may have saved my older brothers life (itās a work in progress, older brother wonāt listen to little brother but heāll pay attention to the wifeā¦).
Please pass all of our thanks and gratefulness on to DOC.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#110
Richard, thanks for sharing your take on this stuff. Iām glad youāre around to go into depth on these topics, because I am findingāmuch to my chagrināthat my brain tends to glaze over when presented with the reall nitty-gritty of these studies. I could also probably use a good course in statistics (which was never my strong suit, because of the same brain-glazing phenomenon) as well.
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#111
This debate about EF has been around for a long time. I can remember it being debated many years ago on the Keto board of Bodybuilding.com.
Iāll offer a few observations, more in an anthropological context.
EF has been a cultural tradion, found nearly world wide, and often tied to religious beliefs. What is interesting is that it appears to correlate with cultures that follow the Carb/grain based nutritional pattern. Within that context, due to the detrimental adaptive states that occurs within that pattern, EF would be very beneficial, as it would quickly reduce the detrimental adaptive states that cause major health problems. Since nutritional science is very new, specifically macro nutrient knowledge, so EF was employed with obviously positive benefits in those that now we understand to be metabolically deranged. Iām not aware of (they may exist) any hunter gatherer cultures that intentionally employed EF traditions.
Macronutrient manipulation didnāt come until much later, such as Bantingās concept in the 19th Century. Steffansonās Bellevue hospital experiment is another example.
So, the question becomes is EF more beneficial than macro nutrient manipulation? Specifically, EF vs. a lipolytic/ketogenic pattern that still has caloric consumption. Iād argue that reduction of detrimental states occur in both, and that the combination of lipolytic nutrition and minor caloric restriction is more healthy as the possibility of the starvation response is greatly reduced, and when/if it occurs is very manageable.
Iām certainly not against EF and donāt deny itās benefits, but neither I nor any of the people Iāve advised have needed it to be successful in losing fat. Breaking plateaus have been accomplished with employing a degree of IF, especially if the subject understands that waiting to eat a few hours after a grehlin secretion speeds the process. IMO, people often think that EF speeds up the fat loss process, rather than understanding that the process should be fairly slow (one to two pounds per week) for it to be healthy.
N1coleS
(Nicole Sawchuk)
#112
PaulL - I took stats in university and really liked it but never used it and now I feel like I need to take it all again after all these discussions! I need to find a online stats course (and time)!
N1coleS
(Nicole Sawchuk)
#113
Ken - I agree with you that you can lose weight without fasting but for people like me, it was so hard. The work involved to find the perfect nutrient manipulation for your body was very difficult and time consuming. At first I found keto eating so restrictive. It took years for me of casual researching on keto eating to understand it (try sticking with something and not losing weight). So I get why newbies quit. But on the flip side - fasting is so easy! You just donāt eat and voila! It was a big kickstarter and I immediately started feeling so good! With that said, no amount of fasting will save you if you donāt get your nutrient requirements in order. I have learned that refeeding is as important as the fasting. For my n = 1, fasting killed the carb cravings completely and for the first time in my life, my body craved nutritious food.
Most people just donāt have the time or interest to investigate optimizing nutrition. Its hard to blame them - look at this thread and all the confusion out there! So I think for a lot of people, fasting can be an effective tool.
VLC.MD
(VLC.MD)
#114
Phinney is against IF.
Does it ?
I would think it does.
I think it did for me.
What is the rationale here ?
It does make sense in that ā¦ āSlower changeā is āeasierā on the body. But if that were actually true ā¦ why wouldnāt we be suggesting people increase their carbs for slower weight loss ?
ie.
A poster saysā¦ āHey I lost 5 lbs last weekā
KF: Increase your carbs ASAP, 5 lb loss is unhealthy !!
I donāt think that would be necessary or would people even listen. Losing 1-2 lbs a week sounds like what Weight Watchers would say to itās clients.
If Phinney plans on making everyone eat breakfast ā¦ hungry or not ā¦ I guess time will tell how much this impactās his customerās success rates. I think IF is natural and increases Weight Loss success. I guess if you want to lose alot of weight see Dr. Fung. If you donāt mind the slower weight loss and lower weight loss targets ā¦ and can afford to pay Phinney for long periods of time ā¦ try Phinneyās new commercial venture.
I find it ironic that Phinney can claim victim for years of fearmongering about āKetosisā but then fear monger about IF. He is targeting peopleās insurance paying for his diabetes reversal venture. I think you have to take a cautious approach in a venture like that. An insurance company wonāt be keen on āstarving people for a weekā for weight loss. Theyāll see it as too risky ā¦ too far out there. Fung targetās the patient and the results without the need to appease insurance providers. Iām pretty sure I know which method gets the best results. YMMV.
infromsea
(Tim W)
#115
Thatās a great point in that, there really isnāt much new under the sun. The Banting diet mentioned cutting carbs to lose weight, in 1863ā¦
Things come and go in popularity and the low carb is certainly on an up-swing, I hope it gains a lot of adherents this time around the sun.
VLC.MD mentioned this already but this line also raised my eyebrow. Having seen some really strange weight movements over the last few years (gained weight on a fast due to water retention and stress) Iād argue that week to week weight loss isnāt as important as maybe a 30/60/90 day āwindowā. Gauging long term weight loss over a period of length makes more sense to me, judging week to week as healthy/unhealthy/too much/too little has little value (IMHO).
circesdad
(Mel Soule)
#116
BINGO!! Follow the money. IMHO it explains many things. Versa, Galileo, Monsanto or whatever venture caught his attention at the time informed his disposition on what works best. Does for anybody building a business.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#117
I havenāt seen a lecture of his where he says that. The only comments Iāve heard have been about extended fasting, and they were more worries than assertions that it doesnāt work. To me it sounded more like āBe careful!ā than āDonāt do it!ā Even he admits that although the research weāve got seems to indicate a danger, there needs to be more research. Thatās why Iād like to get references to the studies on which Dr. Fung is basing his statements about fasting.
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#119
Very good points, I donāt disagree with any of them.
I should clarify one subject, which is speed of fat loss. IMO, during the initial phase of Keto, especially when severe metabolic derangement is present, the one to two lbs. per week often doesnāt apply. I myself often exceeded it as my body was reducing my detrimental lipogenic adaptations. It was only after two years of adaptation and essentially one year of maintenance that I had to make changes in order to lose additional fat. At that time, with a normal insulin-glucagon, as well as a leptin-ghrelin balance, I found that I had to consciously reduce calories in order to lose additional fat. If I reduced to more than a 1000 Cal per day deficient, I experienced a starvation response. I was training at the time, so this may have made my body more sensitive. I found that a 500 Cal per day deficient worked, as long as I had some dextrose around workouts (three day split, with just cardio and swimming on the fourth day, but seldom a real day off) and did a 36hr full glycogen recompensation on the weekends. I lost an additional 60 lbs. of fat that way, in two six month periods about a year apart. I never regained any fat, nor have I for some 17 years now. I never experienced any problems with loose skin, everything just disappeared naturally at that pace. I really looked like the Michelin Tire Man when I started. I have just one picture of myself from that time in a hard copy, if I ever convert it to digital Iāll post it. These points are why I believe a slow loss is healthy and natural, and that at some point I think CICO is relevant. Lyle McDonald was the guy that advocated a 500 Cal per day deficient in his Ketogenic Diet concept of many years ago. Itās worked well, along with the 60/35/5% macro Iāve recommended to people ever since.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#120
Yeah, I did, actually, and I guess I donāt understand what the term āintermittent fastingā means, because it reads to me that one meal a day or an 18:6 IF shouldnāt raise the problems Dr. Phinney discusses in that post. So I donāt see why you say that he disapproves of IF as well as EF, and I have no clue as to what I am missing, sorry!