Phinney thinks Long term fasting no benefits

fasting
phinney
(Bunny) #82

You would have to fast for a really long time for cortisol levels to get high enough to block out all the fat burning hormones! It is the more Adrenal body types that would be affected the most!

Cortisol is actually a good thing!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #83

This is a very good point, Gabe, and thank you for making it. Gary Taubes and Peter Attia were going to try to do something about getting good studies run; too bad they didn’t work it right and NUSI bit the dust. Perhaps they will be able to try again, or maybe someone else will step up to the plate.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #84

I should add that I am convinced of the benefits of LCHF/keto for myself, because the science we do have suggests an extremely plausible mechanism for how it all works, but it would really be nice to have some RCT’s to back it all up with.

(Bunny) #85

OI wish I did know the entire process of hormonal interactions, I am still in the process of learning this stuff. I have been studying this for four months and have been in Ketosis 5 months!

What really fascinates me to no end is how excessive glucose blocks GH, which in turn lowers DHEA levels which fits right in with what you are describing, that is amazing, I think to myself “why would that not be a priority public health concern?” “What the heck is wrong with everyone?”

You have increased my knowledge even more in what you are discussing here because I did not know that!

I just wish I could help those that are struggling to lose weight when nothing is working for them!

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #86

Broadly speaking, I agree. But @carl was just in Italy and noted how fit everyone seemed despite their consumption of much higher levels of carbs than we’d consider “healthy” given the science.

However I think the state of the science and the abundance of examples of cultures that consumed substantial amounts of carbs are the prime reasons Taubes turned his attention to sugar. I think it’s pretty clear that the prime driver of all the metabolic issues we’re so concerned about seems likely to be none other than good old sugar and, by extension, processed “food-like substances.”

The bottom line, as I’ve said before, is that while I’m on a low carb diet currently, and I think it’s safe for the moment, im unconvinced that I’m getting sufficient fiber to ensure a healthy GI tract long-term. That’s probably my primary concern honestly. And in the longer term, I would absolutely consider a Mediterranean-style diet that did include reasonable portions of starches if I could be convinced that these starches won’t jack up my insulin sky high. I suspect I may next year have to start using a glucometer and testing myself.

That’s only going to happen once I’m satisfied that my biomarkers are great and that my muscular system can support experimenting with a diet that’s higher in “slow carbs.” Probably the thing I miss most is what a bowl of Weet Bix daily can do for my GI system; I’m mostly just afraid right now that it’s gonna throw my insulin completely out of whack!

Anyway, I’m just rambling. I’m not coming out against lchf or keto; certainly if I had pcos or t2d or cancer I’d put myself on a ketogenic diet (and experiment with hyperbaric oxygen therapy in the case of cancer, and prob get on rapamycin and certainly stay on metformin long-term). But I don’t, so I have options in the longer term, and more broadly I think if the world cut out the sugar and processed crap but kept eating potatoes and rice and bread, we’d be most of the way toward solving the metabolic diseases in the developed world.

#87

Most of the LC doctors advocate eating plenty of fiberous veggies, and some of them (ie. Dr Perlmutter) are very vocal about gut health.

I think it is a big disservice to define a keto diet based on an arbitrary number of carbs, because carb tolerance varies greatly across individuals. I think it’s fundamental to determine our own threshold. According to Atkins, a lot of folks can maintain ketosis on 50g carb per day. This allows much greater nutrient density and sufficient fiber for gut health compared to 20g.

If you like Weet Bix, don’t give it up without testing it’s effects on your blood glucose. It may have less of an effect than you think. Even if it does spike BG, you could incorporate it into your eating routine (ie. once a week).

As you can tell, I don’t like guessing. I believe in testing/measuring, tracking, figuring out what works, and making adjustments as needed.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #88

Yep I think 2018 will bring a glucometer into my life so I can tweak my long-term diet.

I have done a bit more research into dietary fiber but I’ll leave that for later, because I need my sleep tonight!

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #89

You guys are so freaking awesome I can’t even stand it.
So much good knowledge and discussion here. Thank you.

(CharleyD) #90

If you find that a Mediterranean-style Diet doesn’t help, you may want to examine what your Ancestors ate. I’m beginning to think that the ethnicities around the Med selected for greater insulin sensitivity even in the face of carbs.

Assertion I know, but I don’t think southern Europeans were hunter-gatherers as recently as some, and I’ll always advocate to eat what your genes prefer. As in, not attempt to force a Med Diet cause Keyes up through Malhotra said it was healthy. If you do improve more power to you, though.

(bulkbiker) #91

I’m not sure that the Med diet advocated by Keys is quite the same as that advocated by Malhotra…?

(Doug) #92

Thanks for these replies, you two. I’ve long heard the mantra of “stress causes higher cortisol which means accumulated belly fat,” but looks like there is not much to worry about with respect to long-term fasting.

(CharleyD) #93

Correct, the term is garbage and can mean anything. Keyes impression was colored by the olive oil cartel and romanticism with the area, and Malhotra and O’Neill were looking at it from the LCHF and lifestyle POV. (Properly, IMO)

(Doug) #94

Gabe, this is a good point, worthy of examination. In some cultures, carbohydrates do play a very big part. I think one common factor is that the people tend to eat fewer times per day, especially for the meals that have the “big carbs.” Dr. Fung has talked about this - they’re not “constantly grazing,” not snacking like a lot of Americans do, and often have just one big meal per day. Even if there is a pretty large insulin spike, the fact that there’s only one per day leads to substantially lower average blood sugar and insulin levels, versus eating all the time.

My wife and I have been to Italy six times. I was struck by the amount of walking people do; it made my wife think of when she lived in New York City and had no car. She says it makes a lot of difference.

I don’t think of Italians eating doughnuts all morning. Often just a shot of espresso in the morning or perhaps a coffee and some type of biscuit or croissant (could get into some serious carbs there, especially with sweet fillings). Many of the places we have stayed put out a continental breakfast that includes sliced meats and cheeses, usually with some carb options too. Not sure if this is aimed at tourists or is reflective of what Italians do at home.

Lunch can be a big, multi-course deal. Good chance for pasta or rice in there. Most times, I think if lunch was big, then the evening dinner will be small, like just a salad. If one is going out for a big evening meal, then lunch will tend to be smaller.

At the end of a day, if a lot of carbs have been consumed, then all the walking keeps one in a decent metabolic range; my opinion.

(Todd Allen) #95

Cortisol released from chronic stress occurring while blood sugar is high and pushing it higher is a very different thing from cortisol released by blood sugar being too low while fasting.

(Bunny) #96

When your in Metabolic Acidosis you change the whole way Coritisol responds metabolically too burn the fat but at the same time increasing visceral fat but does improve cortisol metabolism over-time because elevations in DHEA act as a corticosteroid and that is because the body and brain is better able to utilize Human Growth Hormone from the reduced glucose in blood stream as a result of the metabolic acidosis which in turn increases DHEA. And you also have to factor-in the possibility of the lack of insulin causing a fatty liver.

The best way around the whole issue is to take BLOCK CHAIN AMINO ACIDS (BCAA) when you do eat, it simply reverses any of the Cortisol issues with the fat blocking and visceral fat on internal organs issues with metabolic acidosis and fasting! You could take BCAA’s when fasting but it will spike insulin (not much though) and then you have to figure “am I really fasting?”

I get around the entire issue by making sure I am getting enough Choline rich foods high in Methionine (coverts to choline in the body) and BCAA’s through supplementation and diet!

#97

I think you’re spot on. Look at this graphic showing food consumption for a few hunter gatherer societies.

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#98

Not sure if anyone posted this here yet, I didn’t have time to read the whole thread, but anyway:

“Jimmy and Jason respond to Dr. Phinney’s concerns about fasting in Episode 5:”

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/fasting-talk-episode-5-responding-to-the-fasting-concerns-of-dr-steve-phinney/27380

Or here -

http://www.fastingtalk.com/5-responding-to-the-fasting-concerns-of-dr-steve-phinney/

(G. Andrew Duthie) #100

If you’re referring to ketoacidosis, that’s not the same thing as ketosis, nor does it (to my knowledge) have anything to do with fasting.

I think you mean Branched-Chain Amino Acids?

(carl) #101

I asked Dr. Fung to reply. He gave me this message to post on his behalf:

I wrote 40 odd blogs posts on fasting and my general position on it is this:

I don’t agree with Phinney. I respect his opinion but don’t agree at all based on my own clinical experience. He thinks that he can read a few papers on fasting and be an expert. I’ve read all the same papers and used it in several thousand patients, and I don’t agree with his concerns in people who are obese. If you are lean, then sure, you shouldn’t fast. If you are obese, then it may be a useful option.

If you could just read a few research studies and be an expert, I’m also an expert on archeology and astrophysics, but I’m not. I should be playing in the NBA. But I don’t. Why? Because to be an expert, you need to know the science and have the clinical experience. If you don’t fast and have zero patients who fast, then, sorry, you’re not an expert on fasting. Phinney may be an expert on LCHF, but not on fasting. If he wants to be an expert - then he should try it on several hundred people and then see what he thinks of it.

Nobody needs to fast, but its a viable option for lots of people. So why scare people away from it?

Basically comes down to this - if you want to give fasting a chance, then don’t go to VirtaHealth.

  • Jason
(*Rusty* Instagram: @Rustyk61) #102

And there you have it. Let him know his reply is appreciated!!!