Phinney says obese dietary fat intake tends be around 50%

#1

I’ve seen many people recommend 70-75% dietary fat intake, even to those morbidly obese like myself.

I found this interesting, in the following video where Phinney talks about those losing weight on the ketogenic diet.

Phinney gave an example of a person losing weight whose BMR was 2800. He suggested a dietary intake of 1400 calories, and that adipose tissue contribute 50% of the total energy the body consumes.

The other 50%, the dietary intake of 1400 calories, was split into half fat and half protein + carbs. The dietary intake of fat therefore amounts to a total of 25% of the total energy the body consumes.

Between the adipose tissue and dietary fat, this amounts to 75% of the total energy the body uses.

Basically, what I got from the video is when you are obese (morbidly obese in my case) and doing this, and properly in ketosis, your body should feel pretty satiated off of body fat and less dietary fat is needed. He said as you lose weight, you might become more hungry for dietary fat, and then should up the percentage of dietary fat consumed over time, to satiation. And ultimately when you are at a desirable weight, then that’s when 75% of your dietary intake is fat.

If this is the case, then I should just eat 80g of protein and 30g of carbs per day (my personal thresholds), and any fat that comes along with the protein, which interestingly comes to about 50% fat from what I’ve seen in my logs. [I’ve been eating lot of fatty treats to where my macronutrient percentage of dietary fat is as high as 75%.]

Some thoughts/ideas I have:

Maybe Jimmy Moore is still heavy because he’s just eating too much fat instead of giving body a chance to happily feed off adipose tissue instead? Also guessing he probably regularly eats too much protein, as even 3-4 oz of steak is usually more than enough protein than the average body can use in a given meal, the excess being converted to glucose – and he’s extremely insulin resistant according to his HOMA-IR; I know he loves very large steaks with extreme amounts of butter. If I recall correctly, in Keto Clarity he never mentioned the possibility of limiting fat intake of morbidly obese person to 50% of dietary intake.

Also, I read in the Obesity Code that Dr. Fung says that even dietary fat raises insulin levels – although at a much lower rate than carbs/excess protein. And if a morbidly obese person eats a very excessive amount of it (like Jimmy and myself have), I’d figure that adds up to at least some worsened insulin resistance. Whereas, fat from adipose tissue is a result of lowered insulin levels, that’s how it escapes the fat cells and at just the right amount… not bombarded by a huge amount of chylomicrons from ingested fat all at once, especially in one sitting, which I am guessing takes insulin to store so there isn’t excessive fat in the blood; this is speculative, as I have no idea how the body throttles digestion of fats, but regardless Fung did say ingested fat does raise insulin levels… whereas adipose fat in blood stream is a result of lowered insulin levels.

#2

Starting to think I shouldn’t pay attention to the fat macronutrient whatsoever as well as the caloric intake.

Perhaps I should only focus on:

  1. eating a max of 30g of carbs (from above ground non-starchy vegetables) – my threshold for good blood glucose
  2. eating 75-80g of protein (for maintenance of lean tissue)
  3. eating only the fat that comes along with the protein. (I eat a lot of eggs, cheese, non-lean cuts of meat, etc.). Will be about 50-55% of my macronutrients intake.
  4. avoid fatty treats with very little protein-- as Phinney said my body should be satiated off adipose tissue, especially since I am morbidly obese

So once I reach 30g carbs from veggies, and 80g protein, over 3 meals, then I don’t eat anything more for the day.

Reflecting on Dr. Bernstein’s dietary advice:

With all the above said, Dr. Bernstein’s advice of eating only the fat that comes along with protein makes some real sense now. At least in the case of the type 2’s he treats, which are typically obese, the fat that comes along with the protein is about 50% of the dietary intake, the same as Phinney mentions in the video linked above.

(Allan L) #3

Agreed. The guidelines for the keto diet are, 20g or less of carbs a day, protein for maintenance of lean muscle and fat to satiety. The clue is in the “fat to satiety” part. If I just have natural good for you fatty protein I hardly ever add in fat.

(Randy) #4

I’ve lost 80lbs since March of this year. I have basically plateaued since early Sept. I normally IF until 2PM and eat 2 meals per day. This week I replaced my first meal with a Kale smoothie and a bowl of home made chicken soup. I’ve also attempted to lessen the amount of added fats to my one regular meal. I don’t count macros (too lazy), but I estimate I’ve been around 1200 to 1400 calories all week.

I’ve lost almost 6 lbs this week.

#5

Thank you for posting the video, which I listened to in its entirety in between shopping for organic bouillon and free range pork cracklings :slight_smile:

For morbidly obese people (who, unlike endurance athletes, or, metabolically healthy folks) the fat macro around 50% in a well nourished ketosis state makes a lot of sense and sometimes gets lost in the mix of online discussion. And all in a context of SATIETY - it’s fascinating how satiety differs according what fuel our bodies are burning and how well our bodies & brains are being nourished. Giving the body the chance to truly happily feed off adipose tissue while eating tasty food takes a certain amount of knowledge and support for most people - there are so many calibrations - and that’s where learning from such talks as this one, and this forum, and LCHF/keto coaches can help so much. The satiating powers of adipose fat burning for keto-adapted morbidly obese folks are amazing powers when you think about it! :zap:

I think most people raised in the western industrial foods and “non-food items” world have “satiety confusion” - due to various reasons including metabolic derangement, tastebuds malfunctions (smokers), "low-salt"and/or “low-fat” dogmas that render food pretty unsatisfying, and lack of traditional knowledge about the importance spices & herbs cookery as well as live fermentation to enhance digestion powers/enzymes.

Dr. Phinney’s point about Ideology vs. Science is spot on - science is frequently trumped by ideology in the corporate marketplace where human beings are called “consumers” and it just gets worse from there. We are complex mind-body connections of energy & matter, with individual physiological variations and epigenetic influences along with ancient nervous systems - but western industrial industrial food culture as well as much of its medicine culture is quite content to downgrade human potential and turn us into “consumers” :frowning:

And, it’s also true that our bodies have different phases on the journey of recomposition & health recovery - related to addictions and habit changes. Yes, “everybody’s different” in some ways - and, at the same time - detox and keto-adaptation involve some time of challenge to rise above addictions, we have to use our intelligence over cravings and to observe change, which it seems like you are definitely doing!

As Dr. Michael Eades wrote once in a blog post, he’s not a huge fan of the vague ‘listening to the body’ trend as it can be problematic when the body is still in an addicted state of cravings which may feel primal but are really just addictive and disease-creating. Overcoming addiction or metabolic derangement takes some serious management of the primal body craving and aversion. But learning how to properly interpret signs & symptoms variables sure helps optimal recomposition and health cultivation.

Being satiated AND burning one’s own fat is very personal in its physiology according to where we are in our journey, and where we’ve been - and yet… everyone at some point is working within biodynamic laws of the earth and the reality of biology. A splendid and savory adventure!

#6

All of these different suggestions by different experts is what led me fasting. It’s simple and it’s effective.

I read in someone’s blog, that they had a 5 lbs threshold, when their weight rose above that, they stopped eating until it dropped back down.

#7

I figure if I restrict my carbs to 30g eating just above ground non-starchy veggies, along with evenly spreading out my protein intake over the day, to where I never eat excess protein than what my cells need, then there should be minimal glucose in blood along with associated insulin levels, and should be as effective as fasting. Especially if I fast 12 hours overnight, which I plan on doing every day.

Regarding fasting, I have both of Dr. Jason Fung’s books and have incorporated much of what he has said into my diet. I do however think that a couple snacks in day aren’t bad if those snacks are to spread protein out evenly over the day… e.g. like an egg or a piece of cheese; I think this can actually lower overall insulin spikes due to no unnecessary excess gluconeogenesis due to a spurt of excess protein in one meal. I think Dr. Jason Fung is more concerned with carby snacks like juice, candy bars, cookies, etc.

Fasting works great for people that want to lose weight / control blood glucose without the hassle of figuring out all the macronutrient details of keto diet. Dr. Fung mentioned in his Complete Guide to Fasting book, that he actually really approves of the ketogenic diet. He said it was 70% as effective as fasting. However he said it was hard to get his patients to comply because they were too confused with the macronutrient details. I am trying to make my ketogenic diet like 80% as effective as fasting, by incorporating overnight fasts, and even distribution of protein over the day. Fasting only, definitely has its place for some people; I’m however quite a geek with math and stuff myself, so my approach is a hybrid of the two.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #8

A slight correction, if you’ll forgive me: Dr. Phinney is not “suggesting” a dietary intake of 1400 calories, but rather saying that people who eat fat to satiety tend to end up eating about that amount of calories purely by listening to their bodies. His point is that in that first or adaptation phase of the ketogenic diet, there is usually enough stored body fat to contribute to our energy needs (about 2800 calories in his made-up example) that eating fat to satiety results in about half our calories’ coming from body fat.

The doctor’s further point is that during subsequent stages, as the person moves out of the adaptation phase through adjustment, building, and into maintenance he or she will, by continuing to eat fat to satiety, automatically adjust caloric intake to provide more fat in the diet as the body’s internal fat stores shrink, to the point where, in maintenance, all or almost all of the body’s energy is coming from diet rather than from stored fat. But he keeps emphasizing that we don’t need to think about the process, just keep eating fat to satiety. This is the thing I like about the ketogenic way of eating: not having to measure or to count calories. I was never any good at that.

It’s also intriguing to me to see so many posts on these ketogenic forums, both in this thread and elsewhere, in which people seem afraid of dietary fat. It appears that Ancel Keys and his buddies did their job very well indeed, if forty years later and with absolutely no scientific proof, we still think that fat is evil.

#9

I am not afraid of dietary fat whatsoever. Not one bit.

However I don’t necessarily think I can fairly listen to my body for satiation if I am eating an extra 1000 calories of fat per day beyond what Phinney says morbidly obese people tend to consume (which is 50% of macronutrient intake), versus just having the body burn adipose tissue. This is because, as Dr. Fung states, dietary fat intake does in fact increase insulin, whereas we know adipose tissue fat access is a result of decreased insulin. Increased insulin, especially in an extremely insulin resistant person (like myself and Jimmy), makes one more hungry because cells have harder time getting energy.

Again I am not afraid of fat (saturated or not) as well as cholesterol. I love animal fat, butter, cheese, eggs, etc. I just think I should give my body a chance to burn its fat more and that I’ll have better satiation when doing so , because again the use of adipose tissue fuel does not raise insulin like digested fats, but in fact is a result of decreased insulin levels.

That said, I’ll eat fat bombs and drink bullet proof coffee, after I have lost another 150 pounds. I’ve lost 85 pounds so far on keto. When I get down near 25 BMI that’s when I’ll add the fat bombs… that’s because I’ll need them then because I won’t have so much excess adipose tissue. If I add them now, regularly and in excess, then all I’ll do is raise my my insulin levels & resistance which will make me more hungry, lower the level of my ketosis, restrict my access to adipose tissue, and cause me to crave more protein and/or much more fat. (Then the vicious cycle starts again.)

For the time being I’ll just eat whatever fat comes along with the protein, as Phinney seems to at least indirectly imply (for a morbidly obese person, i.e. tendency) and as Dr. Bernstein has already said. Which will be about 55% of my dietary intake.

(Tom Seest) #10

Yes. In general, the problem with people that are extremely obese is that they don’t always have access to stored fat. I white knuckled it for 150 pounds doing straight low carb with low fat, and I can remember being tired all the time. So, dietary fat is a tool that we can use to get energy when we can’t access our stored fat.

Later on, as we become less metabolically deranged, we can eat it as we need it, but it isn’t as important to us then.

Bottom line; we’re all different.

#11

tdseest, I understand. (And congrats on your weight loss despite feeling tired – you still maintaining that loss?)

I guess adipose tissue access would depend on what level of nutritional ketosis one is in and maintains. If you are always in a good amount of nutritional ketosis, you should always have access to your adipose tissue, am I wrong?

How much protein did you eat on that low carb low fat diet? If you ate more than your body can utilize at a given time, this is converted to glucose and raises insulin and lowers level of ketosis. For some people, they don’t even need more than 40-50g of protein. I am limiting to 80g myself since I have a decent amount of muscle mass being morbidly obese, along with regular excercise I’ve been getting latley.

(Tom Seest) #12

Back when I did straight low carb, I made no effort to limit protein. But, I never upped the fat. I ate a lot of fish, and consciously tried to avoid it. At that time, I knew nothing about ketosis or the Ketogenic diet, so I wasn’t measuring anything. But, I tried to maintain a caloric deficit too by eating around 1800 calories on certain days. I would do that by drinking Atkins shakes or other protein shakes. And, it took forever, but I dropped the weight.

I’ve eaten Ketogenically now for just under three years. I’ve maintained all my weight loss to date, as I’ve lost over 300 in total.

Regarding access to adipose fat, I’m a poor one to explain the mechanisms or answer that question. @erdoke has a lot more understanding of that topic than I. I’m actually much more insulin sensitive now, but I wasn’t back then. I’m not sure I was in any level of Ketosis back then, although I may have been for certain stretches.

(Karen Parrott) #13

My weight loss and weight loss to stay in active weight maintenance includes cycling into protein grams closer to matching fat grams.

Other days, in long term weight maintenance I’ll cycle up the fat a bit. My weight maintenance and weight loss (in maintenance)is similar to Dr. Phinney’s recommendations. IF keeps me Keto as much as the low carbs do.

I do have to cycle around a bit with macros and with totals. I didn’t get to pick and choose, my body will respond and I get to track and experiment and observe. Genetics, age, behavioral matters. My weight wants to come back.

2011-2017 on the graph.

40 years of obesity, binge eating many of those morbidly obese. 5.75 years of weight maintenance.

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#14

Wow you both! Impressive weight loss! Awesome work :). I have a ways to go but I am getting there :slight_smile:

(Karen Parrott) #15

Keep going!!! You are right to read, think, experiment and change, as needed. It’s very good to have your eyes wide open and to build your own best food template and meal timing window.

That blip on the right side of my graph was me drinking the very high fat “kool-aide” and eating too high of fat without some IF and too low of protein for my optimum level. Now, I’m more set up in the Phinney model (but not 100%). Onward

#16

Regarding all this talk I’ve been saying about my new plan, about how I’d pretty much eat the fat that comes along with the protein and that I wouldn’t be eating fat bombs:

Well I should probably restate that as: I will eat the fat that comes long with protein or used as a topping for vegetables or salads. I absolutely require ample extra virgin olive oil over my salad and grass fed butter on my freshly steamed veggies.

I am really just avoiding standalone fat bombs, at least for now since I’m morbidly obese, which for me includes things like: extremely excessive amounts of homemade sour cream ranch dip, low carb parfaits, low carb ice cream, and even heavy cream in my coffee (don’t miss it much – cashew milk works as decent substitute for me). Also going to lighten up my chowder a bit maybe with 1/2 stick butter instead of 1 stick. :slight_smile:

That all said, if I have an unusual day where I am absolutely craving a dessert (which really hasn’t been happening to me as of late), I will definitely eat a low carb fat bomb dessert. But I will limit myself to this say once per week, not several times per day like I have been doing

I look forward to when I am BMI 25, so I can eat plenty of fat bombs (e.g. bulletproof coffee) as I maintain my weight (and diabetes) with ketogenic diet (for life).

(Adam Kirby) #17

For the purpose of losing body fat I definitely think there is such a thing as too much dietary fat. Even eating to satiety, whatever subjective thing that means, may not result in fat loss. People have to experiment on themselves and prioritize their goals. The idea of a fat bomb actually is fairly silly to me, unless you have no more weight to lose. Unless for whatever reason your meals are extremely lean.

(Madge Boldt) #18

Super impressed with your maintenance! Seems I lose or gain. Maintaining is something I’m determined to do (with keto) once I re-lose what I’ve put on over the last 5 years. Congrats to you.