Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet experiences and questions?

paleolithic
(stephen) #1

Hi everyone. I found these forums whilst searching for PKD information. I first found Zsofia Clemens when watching Dr Bergs interview with her, I have since watched all of them that I could find and tried to do a lot of research. I first decided to try carnivore though as PKD seemed fat too extreme. I have always had what I thought was an incredibly healthy diet, but carnivore has taught me different. I am not someone who was seriously ill, but I have always wanted to improve my health. Some things that I have wanted to improve though

  • sleep, I have never slept well no matter what, always wondered if it was diet related.
  • joints, for some reason the joints in my wrists / fingers / thumbs have been dreadful since I was about 25 ( I am 30 now ) I always thought it was just RSI type stuff ( mayve trigger thumb etc) but it is only getting worse and makes my life beyond miserable. I canā€™t take it, I started wondering if it was actually athritis which is the main reason I decided to start carnivore.
  • skin issues, I have had back acne since I was about 15 years old, as well as that I get dry skin and also sensitive skin in general.
  • chillblains & reynauds, This past year the cold has been bad and my Reynaudā€™s and chilblains have been extreme. I wondered if this blood flow issue to the extremities could also be the cause of the joint paints

I could list a ton of other small issues but these are the main reasons I wanted to improve my health, especially the wrist / thumb joints.

So I decided to try Carnivore, which goes against everything I ever knew, like most people. I did about 13 weeks of it, pretty high fat, trying not to overdo the meat too much like a lot of people do. I started doing the stricter lion diet as I am under the impression that gives better results. I got no results and all my issues got worse. So I decided I would slowly add in other things such as egg yolks, fish, and eventually pork and butter too. no drastic change, things consistently carried on going down hill. I tried varying things under peoples recommendations, organ meats, electrolytes, fat levels etc nothing changed anything.

I decided at 13 weeks this was getting crazy, I felt like I was slowly dying, even though pretty much everyone I find online had the complete opposite, and miraculous effect. I have been hesitant to post as I know people will assume I am doing it wrong because of their experience. I thought I would go for the big one and try the PKD, ( not doing consultations, canā€™t afford it, so spend a lot of time researching )

So I am only 3 days in, so far. I know thatā€™s early days. but I am posting this just to see if others got results, or if anyone can recommend what I am doing wrong. Because I feel like death right now ( struggling to even type this I am that lethargic, sorry for the spelling errors, honestly donā€™t have it in my to correct lol)

I ordered meat and fat from hungary after seeing Zsofias post using their products, they seem to be about as high quality as I could possibly get. I also purchased liver and lamb brain. I am eating around 400g of food a day which includes very high fat meat, liver, brain, and pork fat, all of which seems to be highly recommended and good quality. I am eating 80+ percent of my calories from fat. I bought enough to do about 3 weeks, as I was hoping seeing as I donā€™t have a serious condition, that I would see some results, maybe heal my gut etc whilst trying it, especially after 3 + months of carnivore.

Again, I know I am only 3 days in but wow, I feel dreadful, I cannot sleep, but I cannot function through the day I have so little energy. Is any one else feeling like this on the diet? If any one had any words of encouragement that would help me out. I honestly feel like these ways of eating are killing me and not benefiting me in any way at all, but I know it goes against everything I can find and other peoples experiences, so I must be doing something wrong surely.

So yeah just wanted to share my carnivore and starting PKD experience and see what other people would advise in similar positions. Many thanks in advance.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #2

Welcome to the forums!

You can probably expect an immediate improvement in some of the things you list, but a full reversal may take a while. The arthritis in my fingers improved in a matter of months on keto, but it took at least a year before my knees improved to the point where I could walk up and down stairs without any pain at all. My skin and acne improved pretty quickly, but I also get a seasonal sort of eczema that took years to fully resolve. And it will return if I over-indulge the carbs, even if itā€™s not enough to kick me out of ketosis.

Switching to a carnivore diet directly from the standard Western diet requires quite an adjustment, so donā€™t give up too soon before deciding itā€™s not for you. The long-time carnivores all say that almost every problem a newcomer experiences can be dealt with by eating more meat.

If youā€™d like to try carnivore again, you might give yourself six months on keto first. There is an adjustment period even for people who switch from keto to carnivore, but itā€™s not as severe.

(Eve) #3

What is PKD? A form of keto diet presumably?

(Bill) #4

https://www.paleomedicina.com/paleolithic-ketogenic-diet/

This explains it pretty well.

(stephen) #5

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I donā€™t mind it taking a while to be fair. Iā€™m just worried that after 3 months it not only hasnā€™t changed at all but all of my issues seem to be quite a lot worse, itā€™s a little worrying to me but I know some people will just say itā€™s oxalate dumpingā€¦ maybeā€¦ lol. I feel like inflammation has increased since starting the diet, I have got spots and things too quite badly in areas I have never had them before. and older spots that would normally heal in a week or 2, are still leaving a large red mark 3 months on, itā€™s bizarre to me how this could happen. But I will try stick with it for longer. I was just really hoping to see some tiny bit of benefit in any sort of way by this stage. the worse quality sleep is making it feel even worse most likely too I guess

(stephen) #6

I would basically describe it, in a very basic form, as being a much stricter version of carnivore used specifically to treat autoimmune diseases and cancer. You have to eat a lot more specific organ meats, what I would consider extremely high fat, and much less meat overall than carnivore. They often say that most of their patients come from carnivore that havenā€™t had results they wanted. Itā€™s very extreme, but itā€™s also very interesting, if you look up Zsofia Clemens on YT you will see quite a lot of interviews.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

I donā€™t know what to say, since three months is quite a long time, though I have also read that people should really give carnivore six months.

But Iā€™ll tell you, there is a long-term carnivore, Dr. Georgia Ede, who has a Web site, and you might be able to get some advice, either from the site, or from her personally. Dr. Ede is a practicing psychiatrist, but she does have general medical training and so could probably provide some useful advice.

(stephen) #8

Thank you for the info, I have checked the website and it looks like shes not taking any consultations at the moment but I will keep checking!

(Eve) #9

Thanks

(Eve) #10

Thanks for the info - hopefully l will never need to go on it!

(Michael) #11

Most organs are lean, and the fattiest organs are at most 70% fat by calories. Perhaps you could write out a few days worth of meals so I can look at what you are actually eating? I eat organs daily now. I did lions diet for 3 months when i started. I also did bacon and eggs only for a month.
Have you done any fasting?

(Edith) #12

Hi @Ste. Welcome to the forum. I have not tried the PKD, although I have considered it on several occasions. Getting a hold of the extra fat and organs is too much work for me at the moment.

I did do a carnivore trial for seven months a few years ago. The first two weeks of carnivore I felt pretty good, and then the oxalate dumping started. Oxalates are crystals that form in our bodies as a result of eating foods high in oxalic acid. Some of these foods include spinach and nuts. These crystals can build up over many years. There are some people who produce oxalates endogenously. Since you are young and already have joint issues that could be a possibility for you.

Going on a carnivore diet is the ultimate oxalate elimination diet. When we stop eating oxalate containing foods, our bodies say, ā€œThank goodness! Now I can start getting rid of this stuff Iā€™ve been storing for years,ā€ and the dumping begins. Dumping can be very painful and even hazardous for some people. Joint pain, tooth pain, gritty eyes, cloudy urine, kidney pain, peeling skin are just a few of the dumping symptoms people can have. Several of us on the forum have gone through it.

While the dumping can be very uncomfortable and even painful, it is beneficial over the long term. I would suggest, if you think oxalates could be a possibility for your carnivore troubles, you should research oxalates and oxalate dumping. There is some info here on the forum. You will find links to some sites, podcasts, and experts. And of course, plenty of info elsewhere on the web.

(Bob M) #13

Iā€™m testing a lower mass diet, which means eating more animal fat. For ā€œlunchesā€ (1 of my 2 meals per day), Iā€™m eating animal fat first.

I personally find it a challenge. Since I usually eat about 16 ounces of meat per lunch, I added about 5 ounces of lean meat and about 10 ounces of animal fat, which for me is pork fat with skin. This has been cooked to 195F internal temperature, so it loses a lot of liquid fat during cooking.

10 ounces of animal fat is ā€“ a lot. For my third lunch, I really struggled eating all that fat. Though it made me so full that I barely ate any dinner, and I spontaneously ate one meal a day on Saturday. I was not hungry at all until dinner.

This week, I have about 5-6 ounces of fat and about 8 ounces of beef. Iā€™ll see how I feel at the end of the week.

(Robin) #14

Iā€™ll be curious to her how it goes for you. Let us know.

(stephen) #16

Yeah the liver is very lean, the brain not quite as bad ( you can also do bone marrow in place of one of them I think, which is much fattier, but it seems a ton of work and quite expensive for a tiny spoonful whenever i try it lol)
The diet is extremely limiting so the only way I could figure out how to do it, whilst hitting the fat content, whilst restricting the overall protein and also fitting in the organs was the following, whilst also staying around the 400g total food in a day estimate ( I had to order slabs of high quality fat and sausage from Hungray that they promote on the PKD so that I could manage it efficiently too ):
meal 1:
50g brain, 50g of a sausage (20g protein 35g fat) similar to what I would call a salami type of meat, 50g of mangalica pork fat & 50g of mangalica bacon ( which is almost entirely fat, itā€™s estimated 8g protein to 70g fat )
for meal 2 I have the same again but replace the 50g of brain with about 60-70g of liver.
I am getting around 85% of calories from fat. you are advised to start around 80 and adjust accordingly, although I donā€™t think I can handle the rendered fat much longer, I wouldnā€™t wish this diet on any one. It definitely fills you up though which is quite surprising on such a low quantity of food.

Ironically when I posted on a carnivore FB group asking for help the other month they told me I should try cutting out organs in case that was doing me damage. An awful lot of conflicting information on such simple diets, pretty crazy. How are your results? I did about 3 and a half months carnivore ( started with the lion diet too ) and got dreadful results, but havenā€™t heard of anyone else in a similar position. ( apart from 1 friend that tried it with me but after a month had to stop because his arthritis in his knees became so extreme he could barely walk, we seem to be the only 2 on the planet not getting good results lol)

In terms of fasting, I havenā€™t done it, I was tempted but went for PKD and they strongly recommend against it it, they believe nourishing the body with organs is the way to heal it and not starving it, I am sure they said there is no actual data for fasting, but I know a lot of people believe it. The most I have done is 1 meal a day but I donā€™t think that counts, I am pretty skinny so a bit reluctant to try fasting lol

(stephen) #17

Hey, thanks for the reply/ yeah people have been suggesting oxalate dumping could be the issue to me and that I should add in small amounts to slow it down etc as suggested in the sally norton video. I wish there was a way to know if that was the issue, itā€™s kind of the only option I have left for doing this type of diet whilst getting bad results, otherwise I am at a complete loss at why Iā€™m not getting results. Unfortunately I never even got the initial few weeks ā€˜honey moon phaseā€™ of feeling good on carnivore if ti is oxalate dumping, I felt bad from the get go.
Did you cut yours out fully or try to keep some in to release them slower? The hardest thing so far about these diets is doing them without a flicker of benefit, and in fact getting dramatically worse, I think if there was even a minor improvement in any of the issues I have, I would be finding it much easier :confused:

(stephen) #18

Please keep me posted, it sounds like a somewhat similar concept, as PKD say carnivore is far too much meat, being on PKD is incredibly restrictive and I really wish I could eat more meat on it! Eating such high fat is not enjoyable for me at all, and like you mentioned, cooking it causes so much of the rendered fat to release, which doesnā€™t seem to agree with me at all, PKD say you just have to consume that tooā€¦

I was trying to slowly lower my meat intake whilst raising my fat intake before starting PKD, and was relying on pork a lot too, definitely the easiest option for fat, but supposedly pork quality from the US, or UK, where I am, is not good enough ( for PKD at least, confirmed by zsofia clemens in some of the interviews from experiences with their patients) and can cause problems, thatā€™s why I played it safe and bought it from Hungary, a place recommended. So far, hating it! lol

(stephen) #19

Thanks, I will do, I must admit I am already struggling at only half a week in, the restriction of food and eating so much fat is almost sickening to me, I am trying to just make it one day at a time, I donā€™t want to give up yet in case it really can give the promised results, but my goodness I am finding it pretty bad lol I am wondering how long I need to give it before seeing results realisticallyā€¦

(stephen) #20

Uh oh I just found a Sally Norton video where she explained itā€™s likely a 7-12 year process for oxalate dumping!

(Bob M) #21

It is a challenge to eat that much fat, and to me, the meat I eat after eating the fat is so much better taste-wise.

But I ate around 5 ounces or so of fat before eating 8 ounces of meat for my first meal, and I was not hungry last night for dinner. I ate a very small dinner, relative to what I would normally eat.

I have more fat for my ā€œlunchesā€ this week, then have my last chunk of fat from the 1/2 pig we bought. So, one more week of fat.

After that, Iā€™ll have to figure out another source of fat. I might try suet, though when I ate that raw, it gave me issues. I may heat it to 195 the same way I did the pork fat. Will see if that helps.

For protein, Iā€™ve always thought that this gave quite a bit of satiety, a good 6-7 hours. The difference I THINK I see between high protein and high animal fat first/low mass diet is that the latter for some reason seems to keep the hunger at bay even after I eat. Last night, I did have a small meal, then ate a bit more, but both of these added up to much less than what I would normally eat.

Meanwhile, for high protein (and even high saturated fat with carbs), I would not be hungry until I ate my second meal. But then, I would end up eating a ā€œnormalā€ meal, whereas now Iā€™m eating less.

Iā€™m suspecting the fat is affecting something hormonal that higher protein does not. But thatā€™s just a wild guess, and thereā€™s no way to prove or disprove that.