Opinion sought

fasting
#21

well we never put a time on us…we never say I will NOT eat between the hrs of 8pm to 11am the next day.

we never do that in carnivore…a few do and try and it can become truly ‘squirrelly’ if they can make the plan work then, cause ZC is eat when hungry, any time, as much as you ‘require’ and don’t eat when ya don’t truly want food…so yea we kinda 'have IF times as we progress as it’s ‘rules for IF fall’ but we are not IF’ers in that sense LOL

darn confusing for sure HAHA but we just eat when we must, at all times cause if you do that, every single bit of your body starts to heal and with time doing just this, settles and rebalances your natural body to change up your eating times and you fall into a truly real natural eating pattern your personal body wants…it tells you, we don’t tell it what to do :wink:

(Karen) #22

I don’t have either. No diabetes and no obesity. I just like to gain knowledge and know what the more scientific boffs are talking about! :slight_smile:

(bulkbiker) #23

Maybe try "Why we get sick"by Ben Bikman.

(Karen) #24

I will look it up thanks x

#25

With all of these authors, when you start checking what is written, when you compare it with the peer-reviewed papers they cite, you see that the researchers who actually know the subject a bit more and publish their research are actually a lot, a lot more careful and less “certain” of things. People tend to simplify stuff and also exaggerate on claims. They also cherry pick papers.

The science is explained, but with a lot of omission. So, not a lie, but they usually “forget” to say that they’re explaining one very simplified part of what may be happening (may be), but there are other possible explanations.

The “truth” (what a horrible word) is that they don’t know enough yet to explain exactly how it works (obesity, diabetes, atherosclerosis…). So, they pick one possible explanation that they think is the good one and put this in a book, or blog, or youtube video.

Then they add words that will get sympathy, like “big pharma this, big pharma that”, “doctors want to make you sick, so you keep going to their clinic”… but later on, they’re selling supplements (so, big pharma is mean, but the supplement industry loves you), or seminars, and stuff like that.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

And some books/articles are written by scientists actually doing the experimental work. Like Bikman. Like Phinney. Like Volek. Like Fung.

(Karen) #27

Thank you I have added the suggested book to my wish list. The reviews looked positive as far as reviews can be trusted lol

(Kirk Wolak) #28

Yeah, unfortunately many of todays KETO enthusiastic doctors are right there!

I don’t trust Quack Watch. And Google has all but removed him.

Does he sell expensive stuff? Yes.
Does he make claims that I find hard to believe? Yes.

Does that make him a Quick? NO!

I’ve read a couple of his books. He interviewed Siim Land and did a great job.
His books are pretty solid.

The problem with “Evidence” pointing in a direction, and MEANING what is implied or stated is really tough. (High protein diets cause kidney damage and protein leaks into your urine… Is a great example!)

(Kirk Wolak) #29

If it is like his other book on Keto…

  1. He is pro Keto
  2. He is pro HIIT training
  3. He is pro Slow-Slow Training (60-90 seconds until muscle exhaustion, 1 set per exercise)
  4. He is pro BFR (Blood Flow Restriction) Training
  5. He is pro Fasting
  6. He generally provides great references in his books.

Now, the downside. He believes once you are metabolically healthy that it is best to cycle out of ketosis to maintain your ability to tolerate carbs (but agrees they should come from healthy vegetables, and fruits are desserts)… I disagree with this to a DEGREE. Sometimes knowing the ending of the movie destroys the suspense. Also, the “when you are healthy” is not well defined. It has taken me over 3 years in this lifestyle to FINALLY start seeing “non-aberrant” metabolic responses to some challenges. [I can have a handful of macadamia nuts without massive migraines for days].

And I think I have another 2-3 years to go. (I spent 20 years morbidly Obese, finally healthy, but getting older isn’t helping).

I think almost all books on a topic of interest are worth reading. I listen to books on tape/audible when I walk. I had to give up reading while sitting, because it is just more SITTING!

Personally I would read it. Even though I read his other books. Sometimes reading the book you KNOW exactly who could use THAT message.

is he JUMPING on the KETO Bandwagon? Yeah! But he also lives this way. He was pushing low-carb high-fat before others were.

(Joey) #30

From what I’ve read about Mercola, if Amazon offered to pay me to take one of his books off their hands I’d still resist. Even more so if I had to spend my precious time reading it.

Sorry to be so negative, but “doctors” who market products scare me a great deal.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #31

I’m curious to know how it is possible to lose the ability to metabolise glucose, which is all that carbohydrates are (except for certain sugars). Even muscle cells, which prefer fatty acids (when they can get them) over ketones and glucose, can always metabolise glucose whenever they need to. Of course it is true that the glycolytic pathways in brain cells can become damaged from exposure to too much glucose and insulin, but that is a special case.

Or are you talking about “tolerance” in the same way as an addict or alcoholic builds up a tolerance to his or her drug of choice and needs more and more to get the same buzz?

(Kirk Wolak) #32

Mercola makes the argument that being in Ketosis constantly is a bit stressful on the body, and that it becomes just the OPPOSITE extreme of NEVER being in Ketosis.

I honestly don’t remember the deepest arguments, but they did include the concept of “use it or lose it”, you could lose pancreatic function over time, without noticing, and then lose the ability to control glucose as well…

Again, I said I disagreed with the concept for now. And Bart Kay says “Eat 3 lbs of meat, and you will likely be taken out of Ketosis NATURALLY and that is a good thing”. I am open minded enough to know that our bodies adapt to anything, and anything you don’t use, your body becomes less efficient at dealing with.

I think we will metabolize it at the cellular level just fine. As you point out. But we may end up with screaming high glucose numbers as “tiny/normal” doses of insulin are simply not enough. [But this is MY conjecture, not comments from Dr. Mercola]

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #33

I like to look at this from an evolutionary perspective. Ketosis was the normal metabolic state of our ancestors for millions of years and for our specific homo sapiens ancestors for 2-300 thousand years. This because the nutrients available from plants were very limited. Our ancestors could not have derived more than a pittance of their nutritional requirements from them. Once our ancestors of 3-4 million years ago gave up the guts to digest and ferment cellulose and lignin, 99% of plant material became nutritionally irrelevant to us.

Being in ketosis is not stressful. It’s a return to the norm. Gluconeogenesis synthesizes all the glucose/glycogen we need and our metabolism does not waste time and energy synthesizing glucose we don’t need. So saying that eating 3 pounds of meat will likely take you out of ketosis is just dumb. Maybe if one is low on glycogen reserves due to recent strenuous activity one’s metabolism might use some available protein for gluconeogenesis rather than just piss it out. I’d bet that it would utilize some old worn out amino acids for the glycogen and replace it with some of the new incoming fresh amino acids.

The basic problem as I see it is that because we are 10k years into the agricultural revolution, we think eating carbs is normal. It’s not. In evolutionary terms it’s a recent experiment that’s turning out not very well after all.

(David Cooke) #34

Don’t worry about things going over your head, it’s a learning process and I still have to google certain terms or processes, sometimes I just think “I’m not going into that”.
The basic principles of Keto are simple, if you run into problems, people on this forum will help.