LoL I love science but real world results beats it every time 
On "Today.com", Dietitian tries ketogenic diet for 30 days
Dan_Dan
(Dan Dan)
#31
LoL you assume I implied one size fits all and I did not. I just gave another professional’s opinion of protein and fat loss and skin loss 
Dan_Dan
(Dan Dan)
#33
LoL again you assumed I did not read the thread. I responded to your response to my comment not to the thread 
All I originally did was post a professional’s opinion on protein 
Dan_Dan
(Dan Dan)
#35
Excuse me I did not know this was a private thread
Others here were commenting on protein so I thought I would like to join in 
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#37
Dr. Stephen Phinney, who coined the term “nutritional ketosis” a couple of decades ago now, defines the low-carb, high-fat diet as moderate protein, in the range of 0.8 to 1.0 grams of protein per kilo of lean body mass daily, carbohydrate under 100-125 grams daily, and fat to satiety. Here on these forums we define a ketogenic diet the same way, except we limit carbohydrate to less than 20 grams a day, since that is a level at which even the most insulin-resistant person can get into ketosis.
And despite what you mention later in your post, gluconeogenesis from protein is a documented phenomenon. It is not directly stimulated by protein intake, true, but rather a demand-based process. But what is certainly true is that protein stimulates insulin secretion at about half the rate at which carbohydrate does, whereas fat stimulates insulin at a much lower level, so for the highly insulin resistant, it does pay to limit protein and compensate with calories from fat.
Dr. Phinney’s research indicates, he says, that people just embarking on a ketogenic diet tend to limit themselves automatically to around 1500 calories a day, if they eat fat to satiety, the balance of the body’s energy requirements coming from stored fat. The level of dietary calories automatically rises, of course, as the body’s fat store is metabolized and the person continues to eat fat to satiety.
Brenda
(8 year Ketogenic Veteran)
#40
Yes and no. As far as remaining in a state of ketosis? that may be difficult to do with a much higher protein amount and low-fat. But as far as the definition of the ketogenic diet, that doesn’t change.
A ketogenic diet is low carb moderate protein high fat. That definition is not open for variation.
How you do the ketogenic diet is.
If you can stay in a state of ketosis eating higher protein and low-fat (I guess maybe some people can do that, but personally I’ve never witnessed it) I wouldn’t recommend that. Especially not to insulin resistant and type 2 diabetics as excess protein can raise blood glucose. Whatever protein our body takes in that isn’t used immediately for building and repair Etc will be turned into glucose and then fat. Gluconeogenesis.
richard
(Richard Morris)
#42
Just to rule a line under this subject - if you are making ketones you are ketogenic, that is the definition of a ketogenic diet.
Nutritional Ketosis is a term of art invented by Dr Stephen Phinney, a man who has done more research into ketogenic diets than many of us have had ketogenic meals; his definition is 20g of carbs a day, protein 1.5-2g/kg reference weight, and fat ad libitum (to satiety). BTW this LITERALLY means to “eat as much fat as you want”. That doesn’t mean to eat till you are satiated, and then keep eating more. It means trust your fueling signals once you have got the derangement from carbohydrates out of the picture.
The way that Carl and I describe what we do, which has worked to enable type 2 diabetics like us to achieve glucose homeostasis and reverse our type 2 diabetes is; trace carbs (20g or less/day), protein to support protein turnover (1-1.5g/kg LBM) and energy from fat (fat on your plate or fat you have stored). We also tell people to eat when you are hungry, stop when you are full.
Why do we chose a lower range? Because there is no evidence that more than 1.5g is any benefit (Dr Phinney’s own words), and there is no evidence than any human requires more than 1.0g/kg for nitrogen balance.
The follow is the metastudy upon which the Australia reference intake values is determined. This shows a series of Xs that show how much protein they are eating along the x axis, and along the Y axis whether they are eating too much (<0) or too little (<0) or just the right amount (=0).
1.0 is the top of the population distribution and 0.3 is the bottom. If nothing else that should be pretty good evidence that humans have a broad range. But that 1.0g/kg LBM is the most that anyone in this study needed to maintain lean tissue.
So why does Dr Phinney have a higher range? He is being conservative because there was a diet in the 1970s called the liquid protein diet which was nutritionally inadequate and killed people and because it was coincidentally ketogenic that set back the science for decades - right when he was in the prime of his career. This is also why he does not agree with fasting as a strategy.
Speaking of fasting, Dr Jason Fung has the clinical experience of treating 1000s of patients and in his experience 0.6 is adequate. Not surprisingly that’s about the median of the population data from the Rand study too.
The bottom line is you need to find out what works for you, if you eat more protein than you need you will use it for energy which will displace fat burning and you will make fewer ketones, your brain will require you to make more glucose, and for hyperinsulinaemiacs (type 2 Diabetics) that isn’t helpful.
But if you can eat half a cow and still keep your glucose stasis - then all power to you. That does not mean that the person sitting next to you MUST eat the other half a cow tho.
Robert_Johnson
(Consensus is Politics)
#44
Real world results is the definition of science. If it can’t be repeated, it’s not science.
Keto6468
(Karen)
#45
Dan-dan and momma2five. Iove what you are both saying with regard to which way to lean. Slightly higher protein OR slightly higher fat. I don’t Just want to be healthy, I want this gut gone, AND the skin with it. The reality is, that I AM losing and some days are higher fat and some higher protein. You are both successful ,losing and committed. Thanks so much
5 month loser
Lynne_Hurley_Perry
(Lynne Hurley Perry)
#46
Just maybe you are being influenced by body signals resulting in the some higher fat or some higher protein days. You are acting on the signals your body sends for what it needs.
Bellyman
(Brian)
#47
I hear ya, Karen. But I kinda think of it this way… It took me 16 years to go from 195 to 285. It’s OK if it takes a while to get from 285 back down to 195.
Actually, since August, I’m over halfway there. I don’t have a schedule. I just have decided to eat better and adopt the low carb / keto way of eating.
I had a plateau over the holidays. And I didn’t deny myself some carbs (and a few sugars) all the way through. I had some. I never gorged or binged. But I didn’t stay 100% keto. I went from about 232 right before Thanksgiving to maybe 237 or so as a high throughout the holidays but it was up and down. I had no worries whatsoever. Today when I got on the scale, it was back down at 232. I’m good with that. The holidays were good. I didn’t feel like I suffered by not being able to eat nor was I tortured by not being able to eat things I wanted to. And so I’ll go from here. I’ll call it a side trip, one that I enjoyed, but kinda like a vacation, I don’t want to stay there… too much to do. 
adorfaru
#48
Thinking about the holidays and such reminds me of a piece of advice from nerdfitness. Basically they say, you aren’t “cheating” or “going off a diet” you are making a conscience decision to deviate from how you should be eating/normally eat. That helps me a lot and I think your story supports it. One week of indulging in sweets in celebration isn’t going to derail all progress. I went up 6 pounds over the holidays and in 2 days being back on keto have taken 4 of them off, water weight from carb eating I suspect. And the key is to not say “I am going off my diet” it’s to say “I am making a decision to do something different for this one meal, or one day, or one event, or one week” and then the very next meal or day or week you go back to normal. And the normal is your norm (duh) and you have that slice of cake once a year to celebrate your kids birthday, or have that champagne at new years at midnight. Its the exception and not the rule, and that’s the key.
EZB
(Ethan)
#50
@Bellyman I feel you here. I also don’t eat pork. I think we need to band together on this. I often feel ostracized by the keto community that screams “bacon” every 20 seconds. I understand that they love it and it works for them, but it feels like it constantly gets in the way of enjoying a good recipe, podcast, or discussion.
If you have bacon in a recipe, that is great. We can figure out how to make it work for us. If you want to suggest alternatives for the pork, even better! However, PLEASE don’t go crazy with bacon every 20 seconds.
Saphire
#51
I do not eat pork either. I do have lots of turkey bacon and balance it by adding avocado or coconut oil to increase the fat. Costco has a nice two pack of Empire that is cheap. There are always going to be foods people cannot or choose not to eat. I do not do well with gluten and have a child with celiac. When she gets upset I simply tell her everyone has something, there are many foods you can enjoy and this means you need to prepare in advance. I try not to make too big a deal, mostly because I do not think it is as big a deal as some other things. I also tell her that just because you can eat something does not mean you should, so I try to limit how much box food she consumes
In certain recipes I will substitute turkey bacon in others I will not use it
Bellyman
(Brian)
#52
I don’t usually mind the discussion surrounding bacon or pork even though I don’t eat it. It’s not a problem for many. Yup, we all kinda have to find where we fit in.
About the only time I get a little frustrated is when a recipe calls for something like crushed pork rinds and I don’t have a substitute. Mostly, I’ve been able to figure out something or find a different recipe.
No worries.
Saphire
#53
I pretty much use almond flour and coconut flour for most things. Heard a pod cast, not sure where that soy flour and coconut flour when used in equal amounts cancel each other out in terms of taste and give you a nice result.
I have started using potato starch for meat balls
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#54
Beef can be cured like bacon. Things like Pastrami and Corned Beef are very similar and easy to make by brining. You just have to have fatty cuts, and they taste every bit as awesome.
adorfaru
#55
True. I forgot about this. Well, beer, or cider. I was just trying to illustrate the point.