No loss


Because you’re over eating. Keto isn’t magic, eat more than your metabolic rate can deal with, and you gain. Are you tracking your eating? Fat adds up very quickly.


One (normal sized, like 100g) onion is super easy to eat, I think I put 3 into my scrambled eggs on high-carb :smiley:
BUT just because it’s easy to eat one onion, it doesn’t meat we can’t put that amount into a huge stew for 4 days for 2… :wink: We totally did that and it was enough! But without ANY onion, it wouldn’t have been a proper Hungarian stew at all. (Normal recipes write more like 6 onions for the same amount of stew but fortunately even my SO doesn’t consider that the right ratio for us.)

Keto has rules about the carbs and even that is individual, I can eat 40-45g net carbs and 100+ g total and it’s still keto as far as I can tell (I got fat adapted just fine eating like that. it was this much or no keto, it was challenging to eat this little carbs, I LOVED vegs and keto allowed very little compared to what I was used to on low-carb, I had to give up my veggie dishes except a very weak, almost veggieless veggie soup - it had peas and onion and carrots as they are non-negotiable for me, they were tasty, I couldn’t keep the carb content this low using other, lower-carb and not nearly as flavorful vegs. but it had some low-carb ones too).
But I digress. So, keto is about limiting carbs. It’s up to us what items we choose. It makes no sense to me to use other people’s preferences and ideas unnecessarily making us miserable when another keto style would be way better for us.
Onion was so vital, I even kept it in my early carnivore-ish days (for stews only. and once for liver but I realized I don’t need it for that, yay!). If I had 1-2g plant carbs to spend if I totally had to, that was onion! And sometimes tomato, maybe mustard… Actually, it’s still in my life for stews, theoretically but we almost never cook stews nowadays (we did it every month before or almost…?), I am fine with my simpler meat dishes most of the time. (But I have my off times too… Still not want onions there except if I can’t imagine the dish without it. But I lost my interest. Slowly.)

But for a newbie ketoer who doesn’t even had my years on low-carb before and easily have a higher level of clinginess to certain carbier items (but ones easily fitting into keto like onions for probably most people)? No onion or fruit is an extreme restriction and I don’t see any reason for it by default.

Even mentally, it may be important to be the one who makes decisions about our own diet. I would hate using other people’s rules. I liked keto partially because it allowed basically anything unlike paleo. I felt more free. I just had to fit into my carb allowance :wink: But I could eat anything carby I wanted and could eat in small enough amounts. That felt nice and even vital. I comforted myself with banana and chocolate when I felt restricted due to the tiny amount of vegs… Yes, it was lucky I could do it using 3g carbs or less (while eating enough vegs would take, like, 100) but it’s just an example where carbier items are totally worth it. Sometimes we can’t do things perfectly. I had to half-live on sweet desserts to keep my carbs low enough in the beginning. As I ate everything with some vegs. (I had no veg dishes except my sorry soup but still needed some little veg with everything not a dessert.) We should choose the best, not something ideal according to others but what we just can’t do (or can but it’s too much sacrifice without a good reason).

I feel quite strongly about these things, yes.

I don’t know about servings but we probably eat that 4-6 servings (if the servings are small. I really don’t know what a normal recipe considers one serving but whenever I saw those things, it was ridiculous)… We want to get satiated by the food, not just using it as one course in our multi-course meals (though we both do that too but the main dish is still substantial).
But if one truly eats just a little and not 5 times a day either, yes, I agree with you :slight_smile: But these are things we should plan, calculate, figure out, decide upon. Onion, fruit, other things? May be fine. It all depends on the amount and what else we eat (and our carb allowance as it’s not the same for everyone). Even spending, like, 20g carbs for a tiny dessert may be perfectly fine (maybe questionable but not necessarily not keto…) for someone who easily affords a bit more and all the other food is near zero (I can do that now. the times when ALL my food brought a significant amount of carbs is over but it doesn’t mean I don’t like carbier things now and then). Maybe not the right attitude for most newbies though. It’s super easy to make and eat very tasty low-carb keto desserts anyway, they were my lowest-carb dishes from the beginning. Now I have pure meat dishes and they are unbeatable in that regard.

They can be. And there is lemon, the only fruit I allow on carnivore-ish (maybe rosehip too as no way I eat more than 2 on a walk, not like I often do that. it’s sweet but problematic to eat, all those hairy seeds). Quince is very tasty and sweet compared to its carb content (maybe just cooked?) and if I limit myself to eat it raw, no way I can get much carbs from it :smiley: I don’t mean to disagree with you, I agree just point out individual special cases where the “only berries are keto” odd rule can and sometimes should be broken… I never understood that rule, sounded a bad idea for me to limit my fruits… But I never had more than 3g (when I REALLY wanted them and sacrificed some of my precious vegs, maybe 5) carbs for fruits and I liked to keep them below 1g. I had days when they fit into 3g but I ate 6 different kinds on the same day and not just berries… I can do ridiculous amounts but it suits some people quite well.
Meanwhile I couldn’t fit my fried cauliflower into 40g net carbs. So I didn’t eat that on keto but why would say no to the vast majority of fruits…? No, I never limited the type except for the very few ones I couldn’t eat in small amounts and didn’t even find so important.

Sure, some people (even I for a few items) may find abstinence better and/or easier than very serious moderation. But it’s something we should figure out and base our decision on it (if we can. my smart part can’t always step in in time when some wilder part runs away with an idea… but even that gets better as time passes and carnivore sped up it quite much).

If we have many carby items and/or some really high-carb ones, we probably can’t avoid tracking. I couldn’t anyway so I just planned and checked the carb content on keto.
If one wants the convenience of not tracking and still safely staying below their lowish carb allowance, yes, they should limit their items more. (I still could eat banana and stay below 10g total carbs a day without tracking but it’s a special case. And why would I eat mostly meat and tiny banana anyway. I love banana but don’t need it anymore to feel not so miserable on my diet :smiley: )

Sorry if I used the word banana too many times. We just bought 3.5 kg a week ago (great sale) and it IS one of my biggest favs among the many dozens of fruit I consider a fav. And I did eat it nearly every one as a newbie ketoers, I couldn’t have done it without it.

(Geoffrey) #43

Absolutely correct on most points.
I’m guilty of judging everything from from a carnivore perspective and I have been trying to remember that we are often talking about two different diets.
Yes, they are both part of the spectrum of a ketogenic diet but they are only really different in the amount of carbohydrates that are allowed. At least that’s the only difference I can see.
You are spot on that everyone’s body has different needs no matter what diet you choose to eat.

(KM) #44

This forum is definitely leaning toward carnivore, and also, especially for long term folks, simpler eating. When I first came to this site in 2018, there was a tremendous focus on things like how to replicate a pizza. Sometimes I am surprised when I see someone’s complicated recipe or food list, and have to remind myself that that is all equally as much a ketogenic diet as what I’m now focused on.


Or actually, many more…
My vegetarian keto was quite different from the typical keto too… :wink:

One may use the same carb allowance for carnivore but indeed, it doesn’t limit carbs as far as I see. Carnivore is animal food to me, it can be pretty carby, it’s carnivore if it’s animal sugar. I still try (and am always successful) to stay below my ketosis carb level but it’s not really hard as mine is way over 20g.
I needed 40g carbs for keto and I like that allowance for carnivore(-ish but the plant part is negligible) too - but my average is much lower due to my fat minimalization efforts (dairy is both carby and fatty while doesn’t satiate me well). A <20g net carb limit (total in the case of carnivore) would make the diet more difficult for me in both cases.
Of course, strict carnivore is extremely low-carb but when we add several carbier animal items, carbs can add up.
But… My body likes those carbs. It feels very different to eat 40g carbs mostly from vegs and 40g carbs from animal food. So I just don’t care about that and I am supposed to be in ketosis in either way, not like it matters much when I feel right.

I remember such times… Popular item. I already lost interest on my low-carb years but I never was into pizza. I just love to make it, I rarely eat it. I did look up carnivore versions with yolk mixed with paprika as a red base… Never made it. I rather make a proper tomato sauce, still may call it near carnivore (seems a tad stretch for my carnivore-ish definition) or who cares what I call it, I have lots of off days anyway… Or I make a sour cream base and use plain fish, that’s carnivore. (I don’t like meaty pizzas, I mean non-fish meats as all animal body is meat to me. Always preferred vegetarian ones but a carnivore vegetarian pizza makes little sense to me, it’s basically just a cheesy omelet :smiley: My crust is egg, typically as I dislike cheese or meat mixed in.)
I can understand people loves the idea of putting things on a flat surface, pour grated cheese on it and bake it in the oven. It won’t necessarily resemble a pizza, I don’t consider even my wheat pizzas pizza as they aren’t. Pizza is something special but I don’t want that (though I would love some extra crunch but we can’t have everything, I have other dishes for that), just some things on other things with melted, browned cheese on top.
And for me, the creation part had a big charm. It’s not just eating the food.

Me too. But keto recipes were weird to me from the beginning. As I don’t use almond flour and ALL foreign baking goods have it. ALL. (Surely there are exceptions but I never saw any - except for bread recipes with lots of gluten and fiber. The ones without almond flour were from Hungarian sites as many of us don’t like to use hyper expensive ingredients in our bakings or who knows why.) And the desserts! Tons of sweetener! (From my viewpoint, at least.) I came from low-carb and my whole family had a changed sweetness perception. I never was okay with using much so I actively trained to lower it even more. Carnivore helped too… Sweeteners make little sense to me now. And I really need my desserts and love (not too) sweet things. But my desserts very rarely need sweeteners.
But it’s no wonder after many, many years running away from my old sugary high-carb diet as fast as I comfortably could. I changed a lot. And I had my principles to begin with. I didn’t consider sweeteners as things I can gorge on, more like something I need to keep as low as comfortably possible and this comfortably possibly should be trained to go lower :slight_smile: It was fun (and slow), no force, just some push here and there, keeping it on the lowest tolerable level until I could go even lower. Meanwhile other people even drink tea sweetened… Wow. (I stopped that decades ago when I got educated how one should drink proper tea :wink: )

(Megan) #46

I haven’t come across anyone who follows a carnivore way of eating who doesn’t try to limit their consumption of lactose (the sugar found in milk and other dairy foods). Granted there may be some out there but everyone I’ve come across has made the e.g. switch to cream or similar, if they don’t like black coffee etc. I eat a bit of unsweetened natural full fat yoghurt some days and choose the brand that only has 1.5 grams of carb (lactose) per 100 grams. Sure I could choose the “carbiest” but why would I? Stop arguing for the sake of arguing, Shinita! :rofl:

(Geoffrey) #47

Carnivore absolutely does limit carbs. It’s known as the zero carb diet for a reason. Granted, there are carbs in some animal based foods but I’m not so sure they are the same as carbs from plants and they are much less than what you would get from eating sugars, plants and grains. From all that I have learned, keto is no more than 20 carbs. Ketovore is no more than 10 carbs whereas carnivore is zero carbs so I’d say yes, there is a difference.

(mykittashi) #48

Hello and welcome!

I did keto from 2016-2020 and then fell off during covid. I’ve just started again and am doing things a bit differently. In 2016, it took what seemed like 2 months to see any progress. I’ve read that it can take awhile for weight loss because the body is first healing from other issues (diabetes or pre-diabetes, hormonal stuff - yes, even in menopause, and initially needing to be really strict with the 20 g of carb per day).

This time around, I have lost 8 pounds in the first week. I am sticking to 20 g total carb per day bs net carbs. I’m limiting my use of dairy (max 2 T heavy cream per day but skip it most days in favor of some nice gruyere) and nuts (max 2 oz per day). So, I’m having to white knuckle through the sugar cravings and those have started to become more manageable. If you find you must snack, try celery cut into matchsticks. I don’t usually like celery due to the fibrous texture, but as matchsticks, the fiber is easier to chew and I’m able to taste the natural sweetness of the plant.

You didn’t specify which kind of berries. For me, I tolerated strawberries and raspberries in small quantities after I had become fat-adapted, but blueberries had too much sugar. I tend to avoid yogurt because even whole milk varieties can have a lot of carbs. If you have a Trader Joe’s you can shop at, I think they have the best-tasting macadamia nuts and those have helped me when I feel the need for a little something.

Keep at it; the health benefits are so worth it! :two_hearts:

(KM) #49

There is usually no “carb limit” mentioned on carnivore because the diet is naturally so low in carbohydrate there’s no point to worrying about it. The exception to this is dairy, in which case the lower the fat content, the higher the carbs. Someone putting a lot of dairy into their diet, carnivore or keto, would need to track.


I didn’t do that I would think… I just told my thoughts as usual. Sadly I have “triggering” topics and zero self control. I always find it funny how much sugar one may consume on carnivore - and I can’t wrap my head over the fact that it doesn’t matter to my body, it feels quite nice while way less sugar from plants may feel bad (rarely does but happened in the past and it was maybe 1g! I am normally way less sensitive, thankfully. I felt low-key sugar poisoned while drinking 1 liter of milk in 1-2 hours felt great - but I made sure not to repeat that for reasons).

There are many reasons to limit lactose even if we can handle it, I do it in order to minimize my fat intake. But sometimes I fancy milk (or we just have it at home. innocent, lovely stuff in small amount after my SO had his way with it, what’s the harm?) or Greek yogurt. My consumption is pretty low but there are some carbier days. I don’t see any problem in it - apart from the too much fat, of course but sometimes I can afford even that (and it’s not like I ever lose fat, no matter how I try to eat).
Each to their own, we all have our individual problems or lack of them regarding dairy and lactose and even our preferences. My enjoyment has the 2nd highest priority after health.

Obviously. I have the same attitude, I don’t even buy dairy in too big quantities. Never liked yogurt (it was some boring dense sugary water to me) until I met Greek yogurt (I am pretty sure we didn’t have it in my childhood). And it’s always 10% fat and 5% sugar (once I saw a low-fat abomination, it was shocking, I thought Greek means 10% as I always, always saw that before and after, but 10% fat is already quite low for dairy if you ask me so no way I buy that. I make sure I buy the fattiest possible from any kind of dairy if the price isn’t unnecessarily high. if 3.5-3.6% milk is on sale, I buy that. still very low-fat but enough for milk and quite enjoyable even if cream is richer. they are so different, one can’t fully replace the other. I prefer cream but milk has its role in our life now so we buy it).
I buy at most one package of yogurt a month. I need dairy for variety and Greek yogurt is nice here and there. But I can live without, maybe this phase will stop soon. I prefer sour cream and I eat it in super tiny amounts while Greek yogurt is usually nothing if it’s below 3dl or something… So it’s a very carby item - but it’s once per month and I have way carbier days regularly so why to put an extra burden on myself? I have it until I fancy it, the time when it ends can’t be too far now. I can eat meat in decent amounts now, for quite a while without boredom and that makes the other items less important.

Definitely not, I always mention that. This is the reason I don’t care about my carbs on carnivore, animal sugar feels fine unlike lots of plant carbs :slight_smile: Though plant carbs aren’t the same either. Even so, getting a lot (like what I had on vegetarian keto) day after day isn’t as good as not having them. And indeed, it takes a somewhat unusual carnivore to consume pretty much carbs each and every day. Even I don’t do that and I am no carnivore just have carnivore days and plenty of carnivore-ish ones. But I can’t afford much dairy anyway due to all the fat and if I could, I would eat butter, extreme low carb cheese and some more cream, not plenty of higher-carb items. And a bit fattier meats and a bit more yolk :stuck_out_tongue:

I ate 40-45g net and probably around 100g total carbs on keto (I was unable to go lower in the first years) and my carni days have 2-40g carbs though typically below 20, often around 10 I think and I very rarely go above 30 even on milky days. I used to fit into 20g in the beginning just fine. But if I really fancy milk or Greek yogurt and eat several eggs and 400g liver on the same day… Yep, it can go high (and almost never happens, odd combo), I just try to keep it below 40g even then. If one almost exclusively eats non-organ meats (it is true for many, the ultimate elimination diet is useful and carnivores tend to really like and handle meat eating), that is probably very low even if not zero. But many carnivores eat some eggs, liver, cream… It’s farther from zero. Still low in most cases but there are so many carbier animal food. Even eggs have a substantial amount, I had days with 10-12g eggs, that’s already 5-6g… So not zero. Zero from plant carbs, Fangs once said and I got enlightened :slight_smile: It’s already a challenge for me to stick to animal items (hence my off times but I strongly prefer my carni and near carni days so I keep training), giving up higher-carb animal items would be just too hard. I merely limit them. As much as I can and try to do a bit more when it comes to dairy. I focus on meat, then some (as little as I can) eggs, then comes the dairy where I don’t get much carbs from it (either because a little is enough or because it’s zerocarb)… Milk needs to wait - unless my coffee addiction takes the wheel and I don’t have cream but I do my best to make sure I do have it. But 1dl milk is enough for several coffees so even that isn’t a tragic thing.

Oh, the cutting it into tinier pieces trick, I do it with some items :slight_smile: It’s amazing how much it can enhance the joy sometimes and indeed, it may be needed for chewy stuff.
I never ate celery stick, it doesn’t look like food to me and people here typically eat the root but each to their own :slight_smile: It seems a mildly juicy thing and crunchy too? I see the charm in that! Or having a snack with about zero calorie. I can’t have such things on carnivore but food is for nutrients, not pure joy, I should be able to combine the two. And I can drink something no to low calories, it should be fun enough.

But even fattier dairy often has 3-5% sugar, that’s a lot. No problem if it’s so rich a little goes a long way but the watery, drinkable things can drive carbs up easily. I still get surprises when I track my consumption on some days. I made the questionable thing and bought some Caucasian kefir (while I never liked low-fat yogurt, I mean anything below 10%, I did love the sourness of kefir and the Caucasian one was the funniest. so I ate it once per year and now I remembered the joy) lately. I just drank modestly (I though), 2-3 mouthfuls and it had so much sugar… Natural, of course, I stopped buying sweetened dairy already on high-carb.
So I agree, one should be careful with dairy if the carb intake is important. It doesn’t matter it’s just a quick drink and it’s not sweet but quite sour… It still may have lots of carbs.

I am sorry. If I had a way to ensure to make me unable to write long comments, I would use it. But I have not much self restraint if it’s about food, it’s not just eating. It doesn’t need I don’t try to curb my tendencies, I do.

(Edith) #51

I truly think for us long-timers it is definitely simpler eating. I know when I first started keto, I enjoyed the challenge of creating tasty low carb substitutes for foods that I enjoyed pre keto. I found I really didn’t like the substitutes that much, (I never found an alternative sweetener that I thought tasted good,) and they took too much work. I also think creating those substitutes really isn’t beneficial in the long run. Even low carb/keto desserts add more carbs than we realize.

I think if you keep it simple and eat meat and veggies it appears to be ketovore because it is meat heavy, but in reality it is just simple keto. I think you could say the long timers really have embraced the KISS concept by just enjoying the basics, whole unprocessed foods.


Some of us need the desserts and whatnots even after several years (well I do on/off keto/carnivore-ish as I can’t stick to it for long but the vast majority of my days are pretty low-carb) but yes, one changes and simplicity is usually the direction we evolve I think. Many of us surely do that and it makes sense. Newbies come, missing their treats and this and that… I see how “normal” people eat, they often overcomplicate things (fine, maybe it’s perfect for them but even my woe is so very simple compared to theirs and I don’t eat really simple), treats here, snacks there, even their drinks must be not simple! No wonder many can’t just suddenly change that.
But later… We change and may focus on the right things more, they work for fuel, possibly even for the greatest imaginable joy (good luck to persuade me fried pork chuck isn’t the tastiest thing ever except when I am bored of meat occasionally)… Many of us can have the exact same simple item as the main part of our diet long term. I really need variety but a very big part of my diet is the same or very similar nearly every day. So I don’t need to figure out what on earth could I make for the next day. The answer is almost always the same, the usual, it’s a good base and I can throw in little extras for fun or additional nutrients.
Some of us need some push, training and lots of patience to eat simple enough… Sometimes we never needed to complicate certain areas. As soon as I added meat, I was very fine with just frying or roasting it with salt (except tasteless chicken but I try not to buy that). I did have stews but they quickly disappeared except the occasional rabbit stew or whatever my SO cooks that I consider it fine for me. I never had gravy I think so I never missed that. Only boring, lean meat requires some extra effort and sauce. But I still need my desserts and like my baked goods, they went through some serious changes in the last several years though especially on carnivore… And they aren’t worse than the originals just different and simpler for a slightly different taste.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #53

It sounds as though it’s time to stress once again that any diet that lowers insulin sufficiently to allow the liver to produce ketones is a ketogenic diet, regardless of the amount of carbohydrate involved.

The distinguishing feature of a carnivore diet is that it is plant-free. This is because plants contain phytotoxins that cause problems for most people who find themselves needing a carnivore diet.

These are the essentials. The rest is all largely in the nature of tweaks.

(Rosemary Easter) #54

Hi, I wouldn’t normally give advice but it seems to me you are not eating enough. For instance, I am 70 and eat 3 strips bacon and 5 eggs at noon and steak or roast beef etc. for main meal. Lots of butter and coffee sometimes with cream. The weight falls off me. I am carnivore apart from coffee and I don’t drink alcohol or eat cheese or any snacks between meals. Hope this is helpful info.

(Bob M) #55

I have been eating a lot of Maria Emmerich’s puddings lately, though. She makes a regular one with whole eggs, varieties with egg whites, and a variety with coconut milk. All are good to me, though our kids refuse to eat them.

I’ve been using powdered allulose lately. Powdered = less grit. Does take more allulose than regular fake sweetener though, so I usually add Stevia Glycerate too.


Even the whole egg ones? They sounds potentially quite nice, it’s hard to mess up a food based on eggs :smiley: Though I probably would want whipped cream with it… Lower-fat desserts aren’t for everyone.


Pudding sounds interesting. Tell me more!

I have some liquid allulose that I rarely use so it is old. I forget where I got it. My favorite is powdered Swerve when I use something. Lately I have been making these Crepe Suzette type things that I love

website. It does not seem to raise my blood sugar even though I am eating about 1000 calories worth at a time. It is eggs, cream, cream cheese, coconut flour, sweetner, cinnamon. I top it with a frozen berry reduction.

I have been keto since 2017, on and off. I am still a carbetarian in my heart, even if I don’t normally eat that way. I naturally adore foods like pizza, pasta, good bread, matza balls, Chinese food, sushi, Indian food, Mexican, pancakes, french toast, chicken parm heroes. I do not love either vegetables (the occasional cauli stir fry is ok) or meat (like hamburgers, chicken breast breaded, shrimp, cold cuts, steak, hamburgers, meatballs, chicken wings, and I will tolerate chicken on the bone or turkey and the occasional lamb chop.). If I absolutely have to I will eat salmon (eg stuck at meeting) although I like lox and sashimi especially tuna. I mostly eat eggs, turkey bacon, nuts, dairy (half and half, yogurt, sour cream and cheese). I honestly could not imagine eating nothing but meat unless I really had no choice.

I would love to eat more complicated keto foods but I hate making them. I love Fat Head Pizza but it is a task. Same with the Keto bread rolls so I make a bunch at a time and freeze them. The only problem is I have to find them in my downstairs freezer and rarely go there so then I don’t bother. I really struggle with what to eat at times although I have started making a big bowl of guacamole and eating that. Of course any plants I eat are nightshades. Does not seem to bother me.

Part of the problem is I try not to eat past 6pm except for special occasions (about once a week on average) but I am not really that hungry during the day. Also I rarely have time to cook during the day and then at night I don’t want to miss out on the fresh aspect of the food (eg fresh keto rolls) so I don’t want to make it then for the next day. The 6pm has been working for me. I now weigh the least I have since 2018 which is exciting (I stalled and then started going back up), I have relost about 25 lbs since last July without feel deprived at all