New Diet Craze! Keto Cycling! Wtf

ava_ad0re · 2018-07-23 00:33:32 UTC

Thoughts? Lol. Bit rubbish I thought.
Written by someone who clearly does not understand Keto.

Alecmcq · 2018-07-23 00:41:28 UTC

They ask a dietician? The very folks who are anti-keto (well, 99% of them are, anyway).

There’s some thinking in the athletic performance world that using some carbs strategically can help performance, but it is all theoretical right now, lots of n=1.

But using this as a regular strategy to make keto easier?? Sounds to me like giving alcohol to an alcoholic and expecting him to feel fine the day after…

tdean · 2018-07-23 00:51:03 UTC

Doing that is counter-productive for people new to Keto and who are not yet fat adapted. Sure if you want to try it why not but don’t expect sympathy if you fall back down that slope to carb/sugar addiction. There’s no way I’m going to spend time getting my weight off and put it all back on because I go back to eating excessive carbs. Been there too many times before, I’ve learned my lesson this time.

Alecmcq · 2018-07-23 03:25:24 UTC

Spot on. My attitude is that I now know what havoc carbs wreak and why would I want to do that? And I bet almost all the people who think these carb days are beneficial have actually never been keto long term. As I’ve said before, keto is the easiest weight loss and maintenance plan I have ever been on. What we can eat is delicious, and much nicer than the rabbit food on HCLF.

240lbfatloss · 2018-07-23 19:23:16 UTC

Nothing new to see here, it’s just an explanation of a weak version of CKD. So, it’s been known and practiced for nearly 20 years. And yes, as long as you’re adapted, it works very well. It’s Nutty Keto Dogma to believe limited and periodic Carb intake isn’t beneficial for metabolic purposes. It prevents stalls and is the reason people don’t have to fast. I recommend it to everyone who’s adapted, you should at least try it, without rejecting it out of hand.

It’s pretty tough to refill glycogen in a day, unless massively overeating, so those who’ve developed a nutty Carb phobia can relax, there’s no real chance of any type of lipogenic readaptation, let alone fat regain.

lfod14 · 2018-07-23 12:34:29 UTC

I disagree, it was actually written very well and by somebody that very clearly DOES understand keto and how it works. Most people that write about CKD treat is as a glorified cheat day to binge on pizza bread and ice cream, this one specifically says to stick with lower GI stuff and to be mindful of the carbs you take in during your cycle which is the correct way to do it. There is no question our muscles perform better with full glycogen tanks, muscle fat adaption helps but it’ll never replace the power of glycogen whether we like it or not. Not everybody on keto is metabolically messed up, some people are very much healthy and want the benefits of keto AND to keep their performance up, and cycling in low GI carbs isn’t going to hurt that when its done right. While I do standard keto, Ive also tried CKD and TKD and without question gym performance was noticably better on the other two. Ive got some inflammatory isssues and the good didn’t outweigh the bad for me but if that wasnt the case id be on targeted keto as Im lifting heavy 5x /week. The one size fits all mentality that everybody needs to do keto by the weight loss standard, or that everybody needs to be petrified of protein stance is crazy. Everybody likes to talk of doing what works for you, and bioindividuality, until somebody eats some low GI carbs once a week for a very valid reason.

Anniegirl9 · 2018-07-23 14:32:13 UTC

Really? There are some heavy endurance athletes that are putting the bit of “common wisdom” to the test. Simply because that’s the way we’ve always done it doesn’t make it true.

240lbfatloss · 2018-07-23 14:57:28 UTC

It’s more like our Type II muscle fibers do better if full of glycogen. Type I fibers do well with fatty acids and ketones.

There’s still the metabolic issue of the benefits of occasional and periodic carbs.

justfeddup · 2018-07-23 17:57:50 UTC

Cycle OMAD which would be KETO and IF for 19 or 20 hours which would consist of water straight up as much as you want.

lfod14 · 2018-07-23 21:17:14 UTC

Absolutely, I’m breaking common wisdom by getting stronger and building muscle on a standard keto diet myself, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t do it faster and push a little harder if I were to have some more glycogen in the tanks. Both sides have a dog in the muscle building fight. But I’ve yet to ever know anybody in real life or anecdotally that can honestly say they perform the same with and without the glycogen. Most of the growing crowd of keto’rs I know were converted by me, so I’d LOVE to say keto is better for muscle building… but I’d be lying. Yes we can absolutely build muscle without, but it’s harder and slower and while most people in the gym doing “normal” lifting, cable machines, and maintenance type lifting will stop noticing the difference once their muscles fat adapt, when you start lifting heavy for putting on mass the differences show real quick. I feel I personally do very well in the gym for a standard keto lifter but it’s definitely a disadvantage. Problem is all the keto “bodybuilders” and really jacked types like Jason Wittrock, Danny Vega, Robert Sikes etc are playing the Keto bodybuilder card, which they are… but they BROUGHT their muscles to keto, they didn’t earn them eating this way. I think people see people like them and get the idea this isn’t as hard as it really is. Most of the keto athletic stuff I’ve read are more the “athletic” marathon / endurance type, it’s never the weight and power lifters. Not that I’m a power lifter by any stretch. I’d love to see somebody create themselves into a bodybuilder while keto the whole time.

240lbfatloss · 2018-07-23 21:32:01 UTC

Excellent points. I did build muscle on keto, but the gain was no where near as fast as it was when I had done it when younger and eating carbs. But, the cuts like CKD and TKD were much easier than a Carb based one.

ava_ad0re · 2018-07-23 23:57:55 UTC

Thank you for explaining, appreciate it.

ScottO · 2018-07-31 12:58:39 UTC

Thought this was about being on Keto and riding bicycles. At least I learned about muscle fiber type I and II.

My original uneducated theory about carb cycling is: when your body uses fat stores, the fat cells fill with water which leaves body weight at a weight plateau. After 2 weeks, when the body gets more than 20 carbs, the body tells the unused fat cells to release. Whoosh

My new uneducated theory about carb cycling is: it’s all just water weight game. Without getting into how glucose and being fat-adapted works, we’re simple less hungry, so we eat less. The occasional additional carbs affects how our body stores water.

At times, I feel like a wrestler trying to hit a lower weight class. When really, I need to Stay Calm and Keto On. Weight fluctuates because of water weight. A gallon of water weighs 8 lbs (3.78 kilos). Keto dehydrates. I drink a lot of pink salt water and enjoy the health benefits.

Nathan_Toben · 2018-07-31 23:56:30 UTC

When properly fat-adapted, well-rested, hormones are balanced, folks like Peter Attia, Zack Bitter find it possible to periodize their nutrition in the same way athletes periodize their training. Eat to the task.

If the task is reverse diabetes, eat keto.
If the task is building a base fitness for aerobic activity, eat keto.
If the task is 8 x 800m with 300m rest, eat carbohydrates.
Whether cycling or targeting, it seems possible to exercise metabolic flexibility as a fat-adapted individual.

Finishingtouches · 2022-08-09 17:31:56 UTC

Curious, if you are fat adapted and insulin sensitive (have no known metabolic issues), however you don’t do resistance training. Is there any value to adding in any healthy carbs? I ask as I saw a post on the threads that it may be helpful to sporadically increase carbs (via veggies etc not anything bad). But I worry this would send me down a craving spiral. I love veggies as a whole so would have no problem eating an entire cauliflower head for example. But what value would this provide? Is it necessary to do this once in a while to be healthy? Is there such a thing as being on keto for too long, and thus one day if you have carbs it’ll do some sort of damage?

lfod14 · 2022-08-09 18:00:17 UTC

The most benefit is with those who are in the gym lifting, but that doesn’t mean there’s no benefit otherwise. This is where keto takes the cult turn a little. No all carbs are evil, and yes, there are “good” ones.

I do a Hybrid of both CKD and TKD, so I have carbs around my workouts and I do a carb refeed once or twice a week, depending on how things go, the benefit to me has been night and day.

That’s person specific, could be that they just want to eat different foods sometimes, could be they’re not about a strict regimented WOE for long periods of time and like to change it up.

For me it depends on what I eat, starchy carbs give me no issues whatsoever. Sugary ones can put me into binge mode, so those are pretty rare for me. My Thyroid values got worse and worse throughout 4yrs of strict keto, and although my triglycerides were always awesome, my cholesterol as a whole got worse, including the sdLDL, which is the actual bad LDL, not to be confused with calculated LDL which a standard panel guesses, which is useless. Since switching both are awesome now.

While I’m not for blindly going on anything, many people ignore them and just say they’re eating keto and completely disregard them, I’m not willing to do that. A little higher than normal? Fine. I’m not for that blanket mindset and cholesterol hitting 200 magic number thing at all, but you can’t always disregard it either. Same with Thyroid, many have seen them get worse on paper, and there’s an unproven mindset of them “being more efficient” on keto, well, when I see somebody say that, and haven’t been able to lose any measurable amount of fat for 6mo/1yr, clearly that’s not the case.

Me adding carbs back in the way I do it has only been beneficial, no negatives, and my A1C is staying put!

PaulL · 2022-08-09 18:17:06 UTC

I reshemble tha remark! (hic!)

(I used to know a recovering alcoholic who liked to joke that drinking made him break out in spots: Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans, Nashville, New York . . . )

Finishingtouches · 2022-08-09 18:25:04 UTC

Thank you for this feedback!
I mainly walk as my exercise so can’t exactly say that’s strenuous in any way. I’m not at all tired of my regular keto diet or have any desire or need to add carbs. However started to go down a little spiral today reading random posts about adding in carbs once in a while as it could otherwise lead to physiological insulin resistance, etc etc.

Would adding about 25g of veggie carb even be enough to get any benefit? Is there a magic threshold when people recommend such ‘carb cycle’?

lfod14 · 2022-08-09 18:43:47 UTC

Yup, physiological insulin resistance is real, there’s no magic number, it’s all individual, just like the 20g carbs number, it’s made up. Many people eat double or triple that daily with zero issues, still lose fat, still reverse insulin resistance, all depends on what you’re going for.

What originally started me on that path was being sick of my body turning on me if I ate near any carbs, it was completely stupid, so I did that, and it worked. I don’t believe the “best” place for my body/digestive system is when I can even eat what’s considered a healthy normal food and my body rebells and I go into a food coma, sorry, not buying it.

Once I realized that was fixed I kept playing with things to see what I could get away with, that’s all, then wound up switching to CKD, then TKD, then did both at the same time and that’s where I am now. I doubt you’d have any issues at all from adding that amount of carbs at all, let alone from veggies. I’d assume it wouldn’t even be noticable.

Shinita · 2022-08-09 19:00:10 UTC

As far as I know, yep, we are physiologically insulin resistant on keto so it’s not a good idea to suddenly binge on sugars (unless one knows what they are doing, we react to this differently) but it’s not a problem as it’s not something we stuck in. At least if healthy.

BUT my body never was into carbs, it seems. Keto didn’t ruin anything (well I did get a bit more sensitive but it’s a good thing, my body communicates better with me now), I just realized the difference.

Not all carbs are the same, of course. Sugars mess me up way easier than starches. Protein rich more or less carby plants are the best. There are individual differences.

So as so often, you need to figure out what works for you best, what are your priorities etc. Slow muscle gain is just fine for some people especially if they get serious problems when introducing carbs, even the more innocent looking ones.

I only walk, hike, cycle and lift, nothing intense or very serious. I don’t need carbs for these. I plan to try out TKD when muscle gain will get a higher priority, I surely will need all the help I can get but now it would just result in overeating, most probably. I always will be careful with sugars I suppose as I can feel them negatively immediately and I only can do anything even remotely intense activity well-fasted. But maybe it will change, maybe it already changed, I just always have my workouts well-fasted as that is most natural to me and I only feel ready for it then and when I don’t do this, it never works well.

So it has many individual factors.
And there are no good plant carbs in general. Vegs make me hungry (except protein rich ones) and mess my eating up. Sugars aren’t good in bigger amounts. Starches work better but no idea if they could help with my activity, probably not at this point.

I had exactly that amount (net carbs) on my original keto. It messed me up. It was amazing when I stopped eating them. BUT it’s me, maybe it would work for you. Maybe it would be even keto as it was for me.

IDK if a big volume of not very carby vegs can give you quick energy… But I am not knowledgeable at that so I stop it here. But fibers tend to interfere, don’t they…? I talk about before workout carbs here where speed is more important…

I never would try out CKD as it’s not my thing AT ALL. Physically, mentally, it would be horrible and impossible by my own will (HCLF is my room 101). It’s very individual I am sure. Very big nope for some of us but it works for others.