I am in the process of finding my personal carb limit and need some assistance. My resting BG is always between 90 to 100 mg/dl and pre-meal can sometimes drop into the 80"s.
When one consumes food there is an insulin reaction to some degree but what is considered a spike due to too many carbs? Is this something that mirrors the increase in carb intake or is the “spike” just an extreme level the BG elevates to when to many carbs are consumed.
The reason I ask this is because I am up to 50g net of daily consumption and my post BG levels have yet to go over 110 mg/dl. I have not measured ketones but could if you all think it would benefit my understanding , but the inaccuracy doesn’t seem to warrant it to me.
I feel like maybe what I have been thinking might be somewhat mis-guided as I was expecting to see BG’s GO UP TO 140 + ? Please educate me.
Need some Wisdom from the more Experienced
With Type 2 diabetics it is usually thought that a post prandial rise of more than 2 mmol/l (36 mg/dl)2 hours after a meal is a spike. Personally I aim for less than 1 mmol/l or 18 mg/dl.
Depending on how metabolically deranged your body is then you may well be able to process more carbs without causing too much of a spike but beware as obviously with a higher carb intake you run the danger of triggering carb cravings so I guess you need to monitor not just your BG but also your desires for carby foods.
That would be an experiment too far for me.
Thanks @MarkGossage. All my carbs are whole food incidentals as I stay away from sugars, but it does creep up pretty fast when I have a good sized salad with tomato, green onion. zucchini, cheese, etc. Then there is HWC in the morning coffee and eggs and the like that just keep adding to it. All healthy carbs and it just seems odd that I am in the 80g range and still not seeing much rise. Not complaining but didn’t think that would be possible with a 10 year overweight diabetic system. I haven’t seen over 1 mmol/l post prandial yet so by your numbers I am still good to go? The carb craving isn’t really an issue as I am more carnivore by choice and am mostly just trying to determine my range just to know. Thank for the suggested standard and sounds like a good plan to adhere to. So does BG rise to different levels depending on different amounts of carbs or types of carbs? If I gradually increase my carbs will the rise rate match accordingly? Would sugar carbs send BG significantly higher than veggie carbs?
I’m guessing that the only way you can tell is to try it… you’ll be a braver man than I though… I wouldn’t want to risk it. You seem to either be eating huge amounts of greens to get 80g of carbs from a mainly carnivore diet? I usually only have about 10-15g per day including cream in coffee (although no greenery at the moment) and used to be under 20g even when eating veg… not saying you have got it wrong but maybe re check the figures?
Yea, pretty big salads to get that high (70/80g total carbs, 40/50 net). Anywhere from 50 to 75 oz, don’t think I can go any higher as I’m pretty stuffed with them. I actually think I have reached the max carbs I could consume with the foods I choose to eat and if there is no limit on the carbs involved then I have found the info I was testing for. I was concerned when starting this post that maybe I was thinking wrong about how the insulin was supposed to be working or as you say , my reaction being T2d was being wacko or something. Just one more question, if I’m good at say 50g of veggie carbs would I still be good with 50g of say carbs from fruit? Are all carbs equal?
And thanks for helping me.
Do uou consume any artificial sweeteners, i.e. maltodextrin, sorbital, etc?
Keep in mind the maltodextrin shows up everywhere… we think we are doing good by using the spends, etc only now to find your body will react to it
From my reading the processing of fructose is very different to that of regular carbs so I would certainly not suggest that your reaction would be similar… It would be an interesting experiment but one that I would never do. But I’m very happy with my ultra low carb way of eating so am not really interested in “pushing the boundaries” of what could work. Maybe I’m not the right person to talk to about adding carbs back!
I pretty much just eat whole foods. Nothing processed. My carbs are veggie related.
I hope not too forward but please contact Dr. Berry… he will be more than happy to direct you and might be a very beneficial relationship based upon the fact that so many others suffer from the same.
OK, thanks. Not really wanting to add carbs back as much as just learning tolerance levels for if I happen to get in a situation where food sources are limited to my way of eating. I don’t plan on doing the fructose experiment either but might see if actual sugar effects me different at similar carb g’s as veggie carb g’s. Thanks again Mark.
I appreciate the suggestion but I really don’t have an issue as since going Keto I have lowered my A1c to normal levels and lost 80 lbs. A lot of other metabolic issues are progressive better and I love the way I feel now. I am just trying to learn some personal tolerances is all.
And welcome to the forum. You will fine it a very friendly place.
Hmm, Dr Berry does not promote adding carbs. He has a very sound view… I am a total keto convert and he nails it! Although it is very strict, I feel it is great mentoring! So much info… food for thought
…lol
I have nothing against Dr.Berry and think he is a great ambassador for The Keto WOL.
Here is a returned “food for thought”
A post from @SlowBurnMary
It would be helpful when referring to carb limits on this global, diverse forum to clarify “my max carbs” or “induction period” or “IR max carbs” etc. I often see some commentators referring to max 20 grams as if it is a monolithic rule - a generally accepted part of the ketogenic way of life for all - which it most certainly is not.
Nor is it substantiated by cornerstone LCHF/keto researchers the Drs. Eades, Stephen Phinney MD, Jeff Volek, and Dr. Atkins when pertaining to the non-insulin resistant or to the IR folks who’ve done years of keto recomposition and are able to proceed to “dietary recomposition maintenance” level then “lifelong maintenance level”. Nor does it apply to fat-adapted endurance athletes, who may do quite well on 150-200 grams of carbs based on a 5000 cal. intake of fat and keto foods.
To clarify: not disagreeing that the “induction period” of the first 2 weeks of keto is an “Under 20 Grams Carbs” proposition in order to get largely fat-adapted. This is what the LCHF/keto physicians I’m familiar with all advise. Atkins is net 20 grams Phinney & Volek is total 50 or less (25 grams or less net) and the Drs. Eades are 30grams net. Even that is a 20-30 range.
HOWEVER - after two weeks of initial fat-adaptation improvements, the Atkins Phase II, and the Phinney & Volek as well as Eades guidelines long term allow going up 5 grams daily carbs per week until one finds one’s ‘sweet spot’. Atkins up to 50 grams net (100grams total) for the Atkins Phase II. For Phinney & Volek 75 grams total or more, Drs. Eades 100 grams net or more - depending on health profile, etc. Then there’s Atkins further phases (Phase III and IV) with even more incremental carb testings and levels. Phinney & Volek point out that for certain metabolically healthy people, up to 150 total or more can work - and Dr. Fung focuses on the radical nature of small eating window and fasting more than actual carb amounts, etc. Last but not least, there’s general n=1 lazy keto, which may vary weekly and include fasting or not.
We all know that this wonderful forum has a diverse range of health profiles and hormonal statuses - that being said, there is no Max Carbs = 20 rule carved in stone for everyone.
The extremely insulin resistant (metabolically deranged and morbidly obese, esp when combined for a long time ) do well at less than 20 grams for YEARS or a whole lifetime for body recomposition and regeneration - this is true.
The non-IR and even pre-diabetic folks can have massive health improvements in the first 6 weeks of keto that reverse their health profile to “non-prediabetic” and confirm them as “metabolically flexible”- whereby body recomposition can percolate great along at 50-75 grams total carbs or even more.
My personal intake of carbs ranges varies, and is often 50 net per day, and I drink red wine a couple nights a week with certain foods. I feel GREAT and my body recomposition is progressing season after season.
Awesome post! Thank you for sharing when actually looking for answers! Have you tried
Intermittently fasting coupled with your keto?
I eat OMAD and practice EF 1 or 2 times a month. This has been my path to successful weight loss. Not sure how that relates to the topic of this thread though?
How long have you been doing Keto?
Dr. Phinney started out recommending 100-125 g/day of carbohydrate, and talking about people’s getting into ketosis at that level of consumption. I notice that now that he is working with a diabetic population, he has lowered his recommended maximum to 50 g/day. The Dudes are on record as saying that they really would prefer to recommend 0 g/day, but fear too many people would be put off by that, so they say 20 instead. Certainly 20 g/day is a level at which virtually everyone can get into ketosis.
But Dr. Phinney has also remarked that some people are just fine at any level of carbohydrate consumption; he estimates that they may be as high as 20% of the population. He says that these are the people who do well as vegans or on the Ornish diet. My take on all that is that everyone’s actual carb limit is idiosyncratic, and you only know what your limit is by experimenting. I have also seen posts by people who feel that their limit has increased a bit as they have become less insulin-resistant, so there is that to hope for.
Like some other people in this thread, I suspect I have a fairly high carb tolerance, but as a sugar/carb addict, I dare not experiment, for fear of going off on a binge and never returning. So I try to keep my carb intake as low as I can, and then try not to worry if I can’t resist that pizza crust here and there—keeping in mind that it is a very slippery slope.
Thanks Paul. I understand the slippery slope but have actually found I have more problem with satiety on Keto food more than sugar cravings. (not really ever been a sweets kind of guy). I have a bad habit of bingeing to uncomfortable levels during mt OMAD routine. And if I try to spread it out, I end up bingeing for 2 or 3 meals a day. My vice is also protein as I have always been a meat snacker (pepperoni sticks, jerkey, smoked fish, etc) so this is more the path I have to watch. I agree that carb limits are individual and that is why I was trying to get an idea where mine was at. I have concluded it is high enough that I don’t have to “panic” if like you said “can’t resist the pizza crust” happens occasionally. Thanks for covering for my bad writing skills but curiosity has me asking as I can’t remember - how did I have it before the correction? 
You wrote “wisdon”—made it sound like advice from the Godfather! 
