Need help getting out of keto

(Joey) #21

Not entirely sure of this being the case. Sounds a bit like the Calories In/Calories Out paradigm. Perhaps that’s not quite what you meant, but I strongly believe that a different WOE makes a huge difference in stabilized body weight.

Personally, there are periods during which I eat like a pig and others when I have limited appetite for days at a time. As for metabolic burn, my daily cardio and 3x/week strength training have been consistent for years. Yet regardless, my weight stays almost perfectly unchanged within +/- 1-2 lbs range, tops.

My conclusion is that - as long as I continue to not eat carbs in any meaningful amount over these years and changing seasons - my body must be eliminating excess calories consumed as it doesn’t seem to store them for a rainy day or a long winter. (At the risk of TMI, I would say my bathroom visits confirm that excess [low carb] food above what I might burn as fuel simply gets sent on its way when I consume more than “needed.”)

In short, I believe the CICO framework serves poorly as an explanation for why we gain weight.

[And are you saying that there are people who switch from HCLF to LCHF and gain weight as a result of that changeover to keto WOE by itself?]

(KM) #22

Have you tried either carnivore or an extended fast? Both interesting ways to shake things up a bit.

(Bob) #23

I do carnivore and intermittent fasting with a goal of getting 2/3 to 3/4 of my 2000-ish daily calories from fat, plus I do a 24-hr fast on from Friday dinner to Saturday dinner and I lose an average of 1 lb per week. Maybe give that a try.

Once or twice a month I “cheat” with a salad, lol. In august I ate one or two small apples a day from my own backyard apple tree because they were in season. I still lost weight.

If I were to leave keto/carnivore, I would head for animal-based. And then if I started gaining weight, I would head straight back to keto/carnivore. But most importantly, I have vowed never to eat grain, refined sugar, or ultra-processed food every again. Only what God has put here to pluck, pick, or hunt is what goes in my mouth from now on.

(Allie) #24

So how much are you actually eating now?

#25

No, I’m saying people can get fat just the same on LCHF, people do it all the time, I’ve put on plenty during the years when doing strict keto, including some intentional bulks, which right there proves we can gain weight on it. What you eat can have effects, some things are more likely to make you fatter than others, but when you’re eating lots of fat, which is over twice as calorie dense as protein or carbs, it adds up real fast. Then add the fuel to the fire that like many, my hunger/satiety signal are crap. I’m far from the only one with that issue. It’s a recipe for disaster. It took me over a year of not moving to drag myself in and actually have my RMR measures, just to realize my already low (for my life) calories where almost overshooting my metabolic rate by almost 1000! Correct that, and the year long stall started correcting the first week. That was still when I ate super strict keto, and after years of it. Also lost over 100lbs doing that, and then fasting, and then of course demolished my RMR, which I blame on the fasting. Plus the muscle loss.

By that logic so does hormones, stress, Insulin etc. They ALL matter. Our metabolisms are complex as hell, it’s not a single moving part situation. But the fact CICO isn’t perfect doesn’t change that, neither is our views on insulin, especially in the keto world. How many think it’s evil and forget that it does way more than be the “Fat storage hormone”. It’s way more than that. All the people on the GLP-1 agonists are losing fat, their blood sugars are way down, their fasting insulin is down, and all from a peptide that makes you release MORE Insulin at meals, keep in mind that’s in Insulin resistant and Diabetic people!

All of it matters, how much one outranks the other, is individual IMO. My bodyfat is lower now than it’s been in 15yrs. That’s after being at my worst, the initial loss, the stalls, and the largest drop in bodyfat and regaining my lost muscle from stupid moves prior, was since switching to TKD/CKD. It’s not as simple as carbs = getting fat.

Everybody (ok not everybody) in Keto circles is typically very familiar with the term Biggest Loser Syndrome, we see it all the time, usually in ourselves at one point, and many newbs come to the WOE, nobody has an issue pointing out that chronic hypocaloric diets kill our RMR, and then we gain when we even think about eating like a normal person again, hence why chronic calorie deprivation is a bad way to achieve a long term goal. One problem, you can’t say then, then say CICO is irrelevant, can’t have your cake and eat it too. Can’t say it works, but only in one direction. That was one of the things years ago that had me start questioning the keto hive mind and probably the biggest driver in getting me to go have my metabolic rate checked.

(Alec) #26

Carnivore

(Edith) #27

I’m curious: how many times a day are you eating?

Some members of the forum may not agree with this idea but…

I just got done listening to a podcast about protein and how we shouldn’t eat more than a certain amount of it per meal. If you are intermittent fasting could you be eating too much at your meals and you body is storing the excess? Maybe because you may still have some insulin resistance?

Maybe try eating still keto but smaller more frequent meals?

Elderly & Resistance Training
(Joey) #28

@lfod14 Rather than pick on the smaller points where we disagree, I’m pleased to see we’re on the same page with respect to most of the larger points. :vulcan_salute:

(Brian) #29

It’s already been suggested but I wonder if something close to strict carnivore would change anything? And not for a day or two, maybe a month or two or three? Or BBBE? Or something very similar.

Unless I missed it above, I don’t have much of a feel for what you are actually eating.

Good luck! Hope you find something that works for you!

#30

Interesting. I have often thought (non-scientificly) that some eating protocols do have a life span. I would be very careful when moving to some other protocol. Do it very slowly. I am rarely in ketosis now, but I eat a lower-carb diet (M-F). However, I exercise a bit on the extreme side. I have always done this, and hopefully it will continue. Weight loss was not my prime reason for starting keto 13+ years ago, but I did lose weight. After I had noticed some weight gain, I added in some extra carbs, 50–100 grams per day. This was the opposite of what I thought, but I started to lose weight again. I recognize that the female experience with keto is different from the male experience.
Wishing you nothing but the best in health.

(Todd Allen) #31

I have heard similar many times from different sources. But despite that for the past few years I have been achieving good results improving body composition mostly eating once or twice daily and usually eating much more protein per meal than is commonly recommended. I wish I had much sooner learned to experiment and find what works for me instead of listening to what others claim is supposed to be best for everyone.

#32

I didn’t need to experiment, I simply can’t avoid eating 150g for a meal sometimes (I suppose it’s considered much by some people :smiley: it’s not very much food though… maybe a tad much protein for me but it can’t be helped). I am hungry and only protein helps. But I have read enough about people successfully doing OMAD, gaining muscle and feeling right anyway, not like it matters much when my own body is happy with my high protein days and meals…
Isn’t this protein limit is a debunked myth? Though I can imagine and even find it likely that some people truly need to eat smaller meals, less protein, be it per day or per meal… But it is surely not a general thing.
And it’s a stupid idea to use some protein as fuel when there is plenty of fat and the protein isn’t even excessive… So I wouldn’t expect that from a body that is working okay.

(Michael) #33

If you added more calories but your weight maintains, then you have started to increase your metabolism. I would keep increasing calories (slowly) so that your metabolism continues to increase. Only after it is ramped up would I consider a different approach. In your case, once RMR is fixed, and only then, a longer fast one a month or week.

It takes a long time for your thyroid to heal once hypothyroidism kicks in.

(B Creighton) #34

My guess is you lowered your calories too far along the line, and your metabolism has slowed. A common way the body does this is by producing reverse thyroid, which blocks the receptors used by your normal thyroid. I see no reason to quit keto.
Personally, and I’m not saying you don’t, I continue eating some fiber foods during keto. I eat a kale salad with home-made MCT dressing. I eat cruciferous vegetables to satiety, usually steamed and buttered. And a few other vegetables like asparagus. The fiber will feed the gut bacteria that make short chain fatty acids, which will help boost the metabolism a little. They generally help people lose weight.

I would also do things to make brown fat. Fat cells full of mitochondria will burn fat rather than store it. I don’t know if your area is cool right now, but if it is, keep the house in the 60s. That will encourage some of the subcutaneous fat towards generating more mitochondria, which are energy burners. A cool swim everyday would also do the trick or long walk out in the cold air. You do not have to make yourself shiver, but just feel cool. Certain foods/supplements are known to encourage mitochondrial biogenesis ie reproduction. Berberine, ALA omega 3 fats(I am using hemp hearts to get this & some soaked chia seeds), polyphenols from berries, etc seem to encourage mitochondrial biogenesis(I supplement Quercitin, apigenin, pycnogenol, and ecklonia cava), and avoid artificial sweeteners, which damage the gut microbiome, or in some cases, change it to favor those that will turn this stuff into glucose and cause increased blood sugar.

I eat a home-made whole goat milk yogurt almost every morning(when not doing IF), which gives me a good amount of MCTs year round. That seems to serve to keep the ketone process on a little and encourage fat burning… but I live in a state where it is legal to buy raw goat milk or raw A2 cow’s milk(which has about 1/2 the MCTs), and cook with coconut oil a good bit. I also make a coconut oil fat bomb I consume before working out - I use the MCTs for energy rather than just carbs.