Need Explanation Please "WHY FASTING IS EASIER FOR SOME PEOPLE"

(Liam) #21

By the way what is that electrolyte recipe you’re talking about?

(Jim Russell) #22

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/ketoaide-homemade-ketoade/5198

I haven’t been able to find the bottled magnesium drinks, so I bought some magnesium citrate powder and put about 1/2 tsp. I also cut the lite salt down a little and add sea salt. I use the water flavoring drops like Mio for flavoring. It works great.

(Liam) #23

thanks man!

(Tim W) #24

Are you in the US? I can find the liquid mag citrate at nearly every grocery store and pharmacy in the laxative areas.

(Jim Russell) #25

Ah, I was looking in the vitamin area. I will have to check the laxative area. But I’m happy with the way I have been doing it.

(Liam) #26

Hey Jimbo, curious if you’ve heard any talk about coffee while fasting? Like does it interfere with any of the benefits of fasting? How much is too much? It’s basically what’s been keeping me going and I feel a little guilty with how much I’ve been drinking while I’m supposed to be cleansing LOL

(Tim W) #27

I hear ya. It will be in a glass jar, near the laxatives/stomach aids/pepto bismo, that area. I add a potassium powder to mine to ensure I’m getting enough of that, ketoaid is a great base to play with.

(Jim Russell) #28

I have seen a lot of people on here quitting or limiting coffee, but I don’t really understand why. Every study of coffee drinkers lately has shown long term health benefits.

Personally, I drink a lot of coffee. I drink several espressos and at least a pot of coffee every day. Fasting or not.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/coffee-new-health-food#1

A growing body of research shows that coffee drinkers, compared to nondrinkers, are:

  • less likely to have type 2 diabetes, Parkinson’s disease, and dementia
  • have fewer cases of certain cancers, heart rhythm problems, and strokes
(Liam) #29

awesome!! i loved this podcast - https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/live-a-longer-healthier-life-podcast-with-dr-sanjiv-chopra/ …

(Jim Russell) #30

I will have to listen to that.

One thing to note is that I am a “fast caffeine oxidizer” according to genetic testing from 23andme.com. So caffeine is flushed out of my system rapidly and does not affect me as much. I can drink coffee then go to sleep with no issues. Perhaps people without this gene do need to moderate or eliminate coffee consumption.

(Liam) #31

yeah, i got my 23andme done, i’m right in the middle and i am a certified coffee addict, felt like a wimp not giving it up on my fast but with all the benefits we’re hearing about I have a good excuse :slight_smile:

(Sjur Gjøstein Karevoll) #32

Just to correct you there, every study of coffee drinkers lately has shown correlation between heavy coffee drinkers and increased long term health outcomes. These are all observational studies and don’t prove causation. People don’t just randomly choose to become heavy coffee drinkers or not, they do it in a context. It’s quite possible that whatever causes some people to have a higher tolerance is also what gives them long term health benefits and coffee is just along for the ride.

(Liam) #33

But you are assuming that heavy coffee drinkers have a higher tolerance in your statement right? That may not be the case unless I’m missing something?

(Mark Rhodes) #34

@Jimbo Well that explains my 10PM 4 shot grande.

(Jim Russell) #35

Sure, correlation does not equal causation. I’m not even claiming that coffee is healthy. Just that it doesn’t seem to be unhealthy and I’m not sure why people are quitting coffee. I know that it can cause cortisol spikes which can cause glucose to be released from the liver. But in habitual caffeinated coffee drinkers, this is a very small effect.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2257922/

imagehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2257922/bin/nihms40260f2.gif

In this study, they had 4 groups. 1 group (PP) had no coffee at all, they were they control group. They tested cortisol 1 day per week for 4 weeks. The other 3 groups all had a caffeine challenge of 750 mg on the test day and received various levels of caffeine on the other days. The PC group had no caffeine on the non-test days, C300 group had 300mg caffeine on non-test days and C600 had 600mg on non-test days.

As you can see from the graph, the PC group had a very large cortisol spike, the C300 had a smaller but still significant spike and the C600 group had smaller spike which was not much greater than the control group. I conclude from this that if you regularly consume caffeine, that your cortisol is not much affected. The caveat being that this study used standardized caffeine pills, not coffee. I would love to see a study that also divided people into fast caffeine metabolizers and slow caffeine metabolizers.

The theory that it may be the genes that select for seeking out coffee that are protective, not the coffee itself could have some merit. This study identified genetic variants that appear to make people seek out coffee. What other effects they may have is unknown.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25288136

So I guess my point is, if you enjoy coffee and tolerate it well, especially if you are a fast metabolizer, I don’t see any reason to quit. Especially since there are a lot of positive outcomes associated with coffee consumption.

(Sjur Gjøstein Karevoll) #36

I agree with you completely. I just want to caution people of reading too much into the studies showing correlation, as so often happens.

I think many who cut out coffee do so for other reasons than long-term health though. For example sleep is well known to be affected by caffeine late in the day. Some may also decrease or stop coffee consumption to deal with acid reflux or other digestion issues.

Anyone tell you coffee is “unhealthy” or “healthy” without being able to provide further context however, that person doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

(Nicole Sawchuk) #37

Thank you for posting this! I was about to post a question about this but I think you answered it. Fasting used to be easy for me and I could go up to 5 days water/salt only fasts with no real issues. I have lost 30 lbs and I am pretty close to my goal weight. I have a busy life. I travel for work by car to a lot of remote sites for work and I have two little kids (with all their after school activities). My day starts at 4:30 am and I am busy until I get the kids to bed at 8 pm. But by than, it is time for me to go to bed too! Fasting during the week has given me so much freedom plus I love how I feel with the energy and mental clarity!
But the last couple weeks I can barely make it 24 hour fasting and now I am in the one meal a day rut because when I hit the 22 - 24 hour mark I am ravenous and no bone broth is helping me! Everyone keeps saying OMAD is so bad for weight loss but I am at the point where I don’t care to lose any more weight quickly I just want to keep lowering my blood glucose levels. When I eat - I eat a lot and I am very conscious to eat nutritious keto food with lots of fat! Also because of fasting, when I do eat, I like to sit down and properly enjoy my meal and just savor it! Eating on the run and shoveling food in my mouth mindlessly is how I got in this mess in the first place!

I asked other fasting groups if adding pure fat (like a tablespoon of coconut oil) during the day in my fast would be okay but they kept pushing me to increase the number of meals per day (and typically I would agree) but they don’t seem to understand I DON’T have time! But I do have time on those hectic days to add a tablespoon of coconut oil with salt to keep me going! At first I was just adding it to my one meal during the day because I was so scared it would kill my fast but since that meal was in the evening, it was leaving me very wired at night!

So Richard your summary has explained part of my problem I’ve recently faced. I am about 400 kCal a day short on my fasting days because I am indeed now lean and my body is looking for more fuel! Since I am poor at measuring my food and only eat to satiety, the fat I am adding to my meals it isn’t cutting it. Therefore adding the coconut oil on those struggling fasting days where I can’t eat a proper good meal is a good temporary fix. It buys me time until I can properly find nutrient dense food for my body without raising my insulin levels!

(Richard Morris) #38

Excellent - glad to see you were able to apply the theory to your own situation.

(Richard Hanson) #39

Just because there are no better calculations than Dr. Alpert’s, that does not rationally lead to the conclusion that Dr. Alpert’s calculations are worth considering.

I don’t think those numbers pass a basic scratch and sniff test and they are certainly not based on a causative clinical trial. Consider a healthy weight man who has nothing to eat and is trying to hunt down his next meal, why would his body burn his stored fat at a very restricted rate which would necessitate the utilization of protein for energy to provision his metabolic demands? I would think, but don’t know, that while keto adapted, the body would utilize stored fat until fat stores where so depleted as to leave the body no choice but to metabolize protein as a major source of energy, and not just to satisfy the modest demand for glucose.

Where the subjects, perhaps torture victims, of the Minnesota starvation studies in ketosis? It is my understanding that they where eating a standard energy restricted diet that including significant carbohydrates and this alone would restrict fat utilization and make Dr. Alpert’s calculation rather useless except for those eating a similar diet, and certainly not while fasting or consuming a zero carbohydrate diet.

Most Respectfully,
Richard

(Richard Morris) #40

There will be a limit that energy can be extracted because you can’t extract hundreds of thousands of kJ instantaneously. Alpert is the only one to have taken a crack at it, but unfortunately he died a few years ago from a surgery complication and we can’t ask him. This data was from Ancel Keys post WWII studies to try to rescue war torn Europe using foods that were available to forage in winter … so roots and tubers and the like. In other words starchy pap but chronically hypocaloric so insulin inhibition of lipolysis would likely not be a factor - so I don’t believe that food quality would be a factor.

Alpert’s math checks out, but who knows how reliable Keys’ data is. Unfortunately you wouldn’t be able to get that study past an ethical review board now.