Need Advice - Failing to enter ketosis

(Daniel S ) #1

Hey guys I’m new here and I need some help.
Here’s my quick story:

I am 34 years old, 5’6”, and weighed 184lbs when I began this plan. Starting December 26, I began a three day water fast. Following the fast, I immediately went into a strict ketogenic intermittent fasting plan.

I consume 0 calories until 12:00 noon. I have my last meal no later than 7:30pm. At noon I eat 4 hard boiled eggs. No salt. No seasoning. Just plain. And I love them that way. At around 4pm or so I’ll eat a salad. My salad consists of salad mix (romaine, small shredded carrots, small purple cabbage), a drizzle of olive oil, and a handful of shredded mozzarella cheese.

These two meals keep me satiated all day long. I rarely feel the need to snack but if I do, I snack on some mozzarella sticks.

I consume extremely low carbs each day - yet my blood ketone meters reads 0.1 mmol/L and my blood glucose levels are around 96 mg/dl.

I’ve been doing this for over a week now … what am I doing wrong? I’d expect to have been in ketosis ages ago with a minimalistic diet like this.

I’ve lost around 9 pounds so far … but I’m interested more in the health benefits of ketosis than weight loss itself.

Can anyone advise?

#2

Hi Daniel, it seems to me your food intake is a bit low, and certainly for a man. As to whether you’re in ketosis, I can’t help you there. I don’t measure ketones myself, and don’t really worry about it anymore. I eat 2-3 meals a day and sometimes I’ll feast on a chunk of meat and some cheese or eat whipped cream, if my body requests it. I would say I am ketovore, that is, carnivore but still consume eggs, cheese and cream. I am 5.2 and 110 pounds and when I first began keto I lost 13 pounds over 4-5 weeks. My weight has stabilised now and I don’t think I’ll lose anymore nor am I interested in further weight loss, but like you, I am wishing to reap some of the health benefits keto has been described to give, and in part, I have, but it’s not bullet proof nor a miracle. What I do believe is a diet devoid of processed foods is always going to be making you feel better than one without, and beyond that, it’s easy to fall into a purity spiral … Regardless you’ll find your body will be going through a lot of changes. My body for instance is losing its interest entirely in carbs and plants apart from cream, eggs and cheese. Those and bacon are my dietary highlights.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

You may very well not be eating enough fat to supply substrate for ketones. Remember that ketones are partially-metabolised fatty acids, the way charcoal is partially-combusted wood. The body can make glucose from amino acids, but it is an expensive process. Try building up your food intake by 100 calories or so, and when that seems to have taken hold, by another 100 calories, and so on until you are approaching at least 1500 calories a day, preferably a bit more. (Calories aren’t the best measure of food intake, but it’s what everyone understands and what we’re geared to use.)

Your lean mass is probably around 58.5 kg, so you need at least 58.5 up to 117 g of protein (or about 8 to 16 oz. of meat) a day. Then you need fat to fuel the metabolic processes of your body, since you are no longer eating enough glucose (a/k/a carbohydrate) to do so. Fat is better than glucose in any case, since glucose is the primary stimulant of excessive insulin, whereas fat has almost no effect on our insulin level (apart from the bare minimum for us to survive).

(Bob M) #4

This has nothing to do with ketones, but my recommendation would be to increase food and protein. 4 eggs is less then 300 calories. And salad has basically zero protein. You’re on the path to sarcopenia, in my opinion.

If you want higher ketones, try higher fat (though I’d also add protein – fatty meat would be good for you).

#5

You probably are in ketosis with that little carbs but it’s a bigger problem that you seem to eat low-protein and very low-cal. Is there a reason for it? It doesn’t matter if you are satiated all day, starving isn’t good. You don’t even have a huge extra fat mass to get enough energy from, you aren’t tiny enough to have a true low energy need…

You surely eat very low sodium too but that’s not necessarily a problem, some people need very little… Nutrition wise there are problems as you barely eat and even my beloved staple, eggs don’t have everything (especially in this small amounts)…

If you can pull off such low-cal days, it may be fine occasionally (I would just do fasting days instead but I don’t see a problem with low-cal days if one is fine with them) but not longer term. Most days should have more nutrients.

At this point I am not ever sure there is the minimum amount of fat (eggs are very fatty but 4 is very little calorie and fat wise) and that’s essential for everyone and very rare not to get on keto as we usually need way more than that as it’s our main energy source.

It doesn’t seem extreme low-carb to me but maybe our definitions are different. Carrots are quite carby for vegetables and even a few tiny ones bring a lot of carbs compared to a normal keto carb intake. But it’s low, sure so it probably works. Some rare people should go really low to get into ketosis but just staying 20g is low enough for most people and most of us can go significantly higher if mere ketosis is the goal.

I personally don’t care about ketones, just health and results but I read enough times that tests aren’t reliable anyway and anything non-zero is fine… But I really don’t know anything about it. I just try to eat in a way that my body likes.

(Daniel S ) #6

Thanks for your detailed response. My body fat percentage is around 26% currently. Is that not enough fat for my body to metabolize on its own or should I really be adding more fat into my diet for the purpose of achieving ketosis?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

What achieves ketosis is cutting the carbohydrate. This is because carbohydrates are chains of glucose molecules, and they raise our blood sugar. Too much blood sugar is deadly, so insulin mobilises to drive it out of the blood and into muscle to be metabolised and into fat tissue to be stored as fat. Elevated insulin traps fatty acids in the fat tissue. If the fat tissue is to release fatty acids to be metabolised, insulin must drop, and insulin only drops when we cut our carb intake.

Fat needs to be in a ketogenic diet in order to supply the energy no longer being supplied by sugar, but it takes a lot less fat to provide the same amout of calories. For example, 1200 calories can be supplied by 300 g of carbohydrate, but you can get the same amount of calories from only 133.3 g of fat. And the beauty of eating fat is that it does not stimulate insulin secretion, apart from the bare minimum necessary for survival (insulin is required, or we die, but too much of it causes damage).

Interestingly, there are data to show that, up to a point, eating more fat stimulates fatty acid metabolism, so eating little carbohydrate, a reasonable amount of protein, and fat to satiety is the way to ensure that we get enough of what we eat. Whether your keto diet is vegan or meat-based, keeping carbohydrate low is the key.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #8

The caveat is that calorie restriction is so deeply woven into standard nutritional thinking that some people who have restricted calories for too long find that their metabolism is impaired (this happened to the contestants on The Biggest Loser, for example), and that even though satiated by the amount of food they are eating, they are still not eating enough. In such a case, the treatment is to raise the food intake by 100 calories for a while, then by another 100 calories, and so forth, until eventually, over time, one is eating a reasonable amount of food.

(Michael) #9

Hi Daniel,

Do you know if your are have insulin resistance or are diabetic? While your calories seem low, I am also a bit surprised even if you were very diabetic. Could your gauge not be working correctly?

(Allie) #10

You’re starving yourself, that’s the issue. Forget IF, just eat keto, maintenance calories though not the starvation plan you’re on currently, so more fat, more protein - more food generally. You need to do this in a sustainable way that will fix your body and not turn it into just a crash diet that will screw up your metabolism even more than it already is.

(Laurie) #11

Hi Daniel. Four eggs for lunch is fine. But I think you should be having a healthy serving of meat for supper. If having meat plus salad is too much, I’d sacrifice the salad.

We’re used to thinking that salad is necessary diet food. But on keto, vegetables are optional. Protein and fat are where it’s at.

(Daniel S ) #12

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I can honestly say I’ve had a tendency in the past to under eat and end up in starvation mode whenever I try to lose weight - which for me tends to lead to weight gain or no change. I agree that even if my appetite doesn’t desire more calories, from a health and nutrition perspective, I need to consume adequate calories to provide fuel for my cells. This is probably why I never feel very energetic.

I will increase my calories and fat intake - specifically healthy fats. I love salmon so I’ll start there and also add more coconut oil to my diet. I am very allergic / sensitive to avocados so unfortunately I need to steer clear of them. Perhaps beef, lamb, and duck … instead of chicken and turkey.

Does this sound like a good plan? Any other dietary suggestions? Again, my main goal is an anti-inflammatory nutrient-rich diet - whether or not that means weight loss (I’m guessing it likely will). I was attracted to keto because I know processed foods and excessive carbs are some of the leading causes of inflammation and health issues.

#13

While I’m not a fan of ignorant people calling keto a “Starvation diet”, what you’re doing absolutely is! Screw the ketones, they don’t matter. EAT! Just eat correct for keto while you still (hopefully) have a metabolic rate to speak of.

The fact your satiated at that little is already a bad sign.

#14

It definitely doesn’t help. But I eat a lot and still have low energy… I guess it has so many factors and if we do something wrong while the rest right, we may end up with low energy. But I think my personal factor already somewhat dooms me, I am simply a low energy type of person, just like my SO. We never have much of it. BUT I have better days and I hope I can reach that regularly one day.

Avocado isn’t needed, I can’t even afford it and dislike the watery green taste too, no problem, just easier, cheaper woe :wink: As long as we still have enough good stuff to eat, it’s fine.

Chicken and turkey may give you plenty of calories (along with some fattier items), at least if you eat the skin too… They aren’t particularly lean that way. I would overeat from them due to no satiating effect but it doesn’t happen if they are just side dish or snack. I heard from multiple carnivores that chicken doesn’t satiate them well, it may help with eating more if that’s the case for you (and you eat the skin). But if you like other, fattier meats more and they don’t satiate you too well, eat them, sure.
Maybe you need variety anyway, try out the different meats then :slight_smile:
I would experiment to figure out what works, no one can tell it in advance.

You see things right, judging from your last comment and it may work, I obviously can’t know how much you could eat from what… But sounds a valid idea, focus on fattier items

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #15

You are right. “Anti-inflammatory” means, at the very least, eating

  • in a way that lowers glucose and insulin (because low in dietary carbohydrate), and

  • in a way that keeps polyunsaturated fats low (both because some of them can cause inflammation, and also for the practical reason that too much polyunsaturated fat can make us feel nauseated).

Not to mention that ketones also have certain epigenetic effects that lower inflammation.

Also note that “weight” loss is not always a consequence of a ketogenic diet. Yes, you may shed excess fat, but you will most likely preserve muscle and may even gain some. And eating enough protein not only preserves muscle, but it also helps to strengthen bones—which are made of calcium, yes, but that calcium is contained in a protein matrix.

(Allie) #16

Absolutely.

@djs4him you’ve seriously screwed your metabolism by the sounds of it so really need to work hard on increasing your food intake. Do it gradually, maybe 100 calories a day at first then up it again by another 100 after a couple of weeks and keep on doing that until you get it at least 2500 calories. By doing it gradually your body gets to adapt to the increase and will make use of the nutrients rather than gaining fat.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #17

Welcome to the forums.
It takes most people at least two weeks to be in ketosis, if they are doing it correctly. It takes others more like two months. When we measure ketones, that is what we have NOT used up, so chasing those is kinda futile.

Check out the calculator in this posting. Can someone please explain Richard's calculator?

Read the linked article, it explains a lot.

You did lose weight, but to keep it going I think you will find more keto foods will help you.
All the best in sorting yourself out.

#18

I have to say, though others have probably already said it, that what you stated in your first post you eat and feel satiated by is tiny. Especially if you are also active. Considering your height and weight. I am 159cm, 50kg (I have no idea what my body fat percentage is so can’t say) and I am pretty sedentary (apart from 40min daily walks) I eat way more than you, in terms of protein and fat. I prefer fattier meats. I eat mainly saturated fats, a lot of meat (my preferance bacon, beef and gammon joint), eggs, butter, cheese and cream, and some nuts and vegetables. If you would rather eat more plant based, you could add olives, nuts and avocados to your WOE to up the fat intake. And fatty fish. And if you don’t have a problem with dairy you could enjoy whipped cream in your coffee or even enjoy it as a dessert, I am in love with the stuff.

I don’t really eat salads. But if you like them, then perhaps, you could top with cheese or/and butter and serve it with your favourite meat or fish? Lots of things you could play around with. If you like coconut you could add that to your dishes as well. And, like others have already said, don’t worry about the ketones, I think it causes some people an unnecessary amount of stress worrying about such things and macros, which then makes the whole thing less enjoyable and so, in the long term, less sustainable.