Nathan's Keto Journey To Race Weight

[Nathan_Toben]

Good point.

As a bike courier for work, i still feel the residual fatigue/depletion of my fast on fri-sat. I teying to remind myself of my intentions and go easy on myself today. i have a big week of training ahead culminating in a 42-mile mountain run on Sunday (weather permitting). If my weight loss goal saps me too much, I will postpone the run.

I have heard multiple sources say that a 500-800 calorie deficit is the maximum before athletic performance is affected negatively. So I want to aim for a daily 800 calorie deficit until Friday - if i land at a 500 calorie deficit, I will be ok with that.

To fuel a 10-hr effort like the aforementioned run, I will have a steady drip of carbohydrate.

So: Ideally, I would refeed on Friday afternoon (no deficit, maybe a 200-500 calorie surplus), and then fast until early evening Saturday for another refeed. This would amp up my fat burning for the run and then coupled with the steady drip of liquid carbohydrates in my hydration belt, it will be an experiment of metabolic flexibility and good training for my upcoming 100-miler.

The key is to get to the foot of the mountain in ketosis, do the run, and then recover with whole foods, and in the proceeding days, allow for autophagy to fully cleanse myself of the sports nutrition and drop back into nutritional ketosis.

Really focusing on this task right now. Grateful for y’alls support. This is so hard for me.

[Callisto]

You’re so systematic. I love it. Let us know how it goes.

[Nathan_Toben]

Day 4 of 21

Weight:

Goal: 169.2lbs
Actual: 166lbs

Notes on Yesterday: broke a 20hr IF at 3pm with salted and peppered kalamata olives and boiled eggs. For dinner (6:30pm), made 80/20 beef with onion, garlic, herbed salt, cumin. Cooked in the pan with 3 tbsp of butter and threw in 4 eggs for my second helping. Also finished brussel sprouts from the night before and had half an avocado. Estimated Deficit = 770 kcals.

I’d love y’alls input on these breakdowns.

My protein was a little high. 140ish grams. Based on my lean mass (75kg) and what seems to be the least stress on my evening digestion, I want to be between 100-115 grams of protein for the day. Also my carbohydrates were 47g - 15g fiber = 32g. Though this is totally fine for my active days, I do want to allow for deeper ketosis to set in so I am going to aim for 20g today.

I am on a 3 day upward trend in weight because i am retaining food and water after sat-sun 38hr fast. Also I just wake up and weigh myself first thing because I got to head out and get my run in before work so it could be dinner sitting in there but I got to admit, it’s a little discouraging. But this is the grind. Thankful for the discipline. Not sure what has catalyzed it but i want to ride it out as best I can.

[Nathan_Toben]

Day 5

Notes: Up a half a pound from yesterday. Fat in a good place, protein also good. Carbs = 37 - 11 fiber = 26, so better. Finished the day yesterday with a 900 cal deficit. I was at about -1200 but kept eating to keep it lower so my speed session this morning didn’t suffer. If I ate any more, my digestion would have suffered. Got plenty of sleep. Helps to have no internet.

[Callisto]

You feeling okay about stuff? I know it’s an experiment and you’re seeing where it will lead, and you know it was a large water weight dump at the beginning. And also daily variations, etc etc. I hope the scale isn’t getting you down, though.

I was just trying to remember what that equation is that tells you how much body fat can actually be metabolized in one day, as an upper limit. You don’t have a lot to begin with so I wonder how that limit is playing into this experiment. I’ll see if I can find the post about that, but maybe you already know what I’m talking about.

[Callisto]

Found it. The entire post is pretty helpful so I’ll just link to it! The part I mentioned before is what he discusses under “Stored Energy.” Sorry if you already know all this, factored it in, and I’m just being pedantic.

Simple diagram that demonstrates weight loss

I don’t have it to hand. But the theory goes something like this - if we fix carbs at a minimum, and protein at an adequate supply, then the only caloric source to change to lower body fat is dietary fat, So reduce that and you must lose weight. It’s a simplistic model, which is why it is favored by personal trainers, dietitians and GPs. It’s just a restatement of Energy stored = Calories in minus Calories out using ketogenic macros. Firstly it’s a furphy that we have conscious control ov…

[Nathan_Toben]

Firstly it’s a furphy that we have conscious control ov…

Uh-oh. What’s a furphy?!?

No yes, this has me thinking. i have roughly 24lbs of body fat. What does that mean for how much stored energy i can burn in a day? My brain is dumb (probably from cutting calories).

i’m feeling pretty good. My speed session went really well this morning largely because i had no full stomach and no indigestion. i am a little bummed about what the scale is saying. I might join in on the september zornfast on friday after breakfast. I want to figure out how much is water lost and fat lost plus this whole weekly satiety signals have been working well and i think it is from that 38hr fast last week.

i got cut from work early today which throws me off a little. and i don’t have running water at my house which compounds on this.

i have my dinner planned out. For someone like me, the two hardest components of keto are: for someone who burns 3000 calories each day in exercise…

1. keeping protein in a moderate range relative to my lean muscle (75kg x 1.5g = 112g protein).

and

2. eating enough but not too much to cause indigestion and impair my early morning runs.

[Callisto]

Uh-oh. What’s a furphy?!?

Ha ha! I have no clue. Maybe it’s an Aussie thing?

The way I understand it, if you have 24 lbs of body fat, and each of those lbs can provide 31.5 kcal per day of metabolizable energy, the maximum would be 756 kcal. So if you restrict more than that over a long period of time, the extra has to come from somewhere, either from another fuel source or from decreased metabolic rate. It has been a long time since I read that full post from Richard, so the answer may be in there. Or somewhere in Phinney’s work, I am not familiar with all of it but my understanding is that he works with athletes primarily.

[Nathan_Toben]

I sort of just realized that calories in calories out is a hot button issue in the keto community and in particular on these forms. I am mainly nursing caloric deficit because I have the energy budget, or discipline budget to do so and it is a new stimulus that I don’t usually empart to my body.

I am also looking to lose “those last 10 pounds” and I have heard from multiple sources that specific strategies might need to be implemented in order to do so. But what I am seeing so far, is that, with burn rate of 5000 calories a day, the natural landing place for my digestion so to optimize my fun times and performance in my morning runs, hard workouts and lastly at my work as a food Courier, Is to be in a caloric deficit.

This is why one hypothesis I have is: my body would preferred to be at a lighter weight because I could sustain the same lifestyle with less caloric burn, and with less caloric burn I wouldn’t need to digest as much food in order to maintain a particular body composition. Whereas before, in a normal day of mine I would burn 5000 cal, if I dropped to 150 pounds, I might burn as little as 4000 cal in that same day. So I would reach a place where I would not experience indigestion in an effort to keep up with my caloric Burn. This is all anecdotal of course…

[Nathan_Toben]

Day 6

Notes: Up a half pound over yesterday to 167 despite a 600 calorie deficit. I look leaner and my digestion is good. Looking forward to fasting friday-saturday.

[Madeleine]

I sort of just realized that calories in calories out is a hot button issue in the keto community and in particular on these forms.

CICO is generally recognized here as poor paradigm (compared to insulin regulation) but still it’s the subject of interesting debate, and lots of folks on here like using calorie tracking as a tool.
The only reason it got acrimonious in the recent thread is because the OP was being dismissive to folks who had experiences that he couldn’t explain with CICO.

[Nathan_Toben]

@Madeleine thanks for explaining that. In my experience, once fat adapted, a caloric deficit while eating a well-rounded ketogenic diet does have the effect of weight loss. However, I am truly truly still a newbie (3 months or so) and my situation pertains to running performance which seems to be a quieter corner in the keto space.

[Madeleine]

I don’t think too many folks would argue that a caloric deficit will lead to weight loss (or that a caloric excess to weight gain); it’s that the measuring can be very misleading and the restricting can be problematic. The keto ideal would be: restrict carbs so that you become fat-adapted; once you’re fat adapted, use your satiety signals to see how much fat you need (since your body should be supplying the rest from your own stores); tweak as needed. Counting your calories can make you miss some of the cues along the way. (But, still, they give a tangible measure that some folks love or need, so to each his own!)

[Callisto]

I fall into the “forget CICO” camp generally, but I haven’t even thought of that reading your plans and progress, because I think there are crucial factors that make a lot of those other discussions about CICO questionably applicable to you. There are many examples of how human physiological processes fit one model when in the typical normal range of basic everyday homeostasis, and in a vastly different anomalous fashion at the extremes of what a body can experience. With your intake and exercise level, I can see how the way CICO works (or rather doesn’t work in many cases) may not apply the same way. Your experiment admittedly seems somewhat extreme to many of the rest of us, but if it’s not so extreme for you (the exercise and calorie intake I mean) then the experiment would be worthwhile.

Adding: that question about whether you have enough body fat to compensate for the daily calorie deficit seems like it could still be applicable, though. Especially given that your goal is racing performance, I would just just want to know that some dreaded “starvation mode” pathways aren’t kicking in.

[Nathan_Toben]

@Madeleine, @Callisto, I gotta say thanks again for your thoughts this morning. Once again this forum proves to be a place where i can get criticism and support in the same breath so to keep me honest and humble and seeking out contrary information. Gosh i would like it to be the case that i reach a slim 150 race weight by eating to maintenance. It would be a lot easier that’s for sure, however, deficit or no deficit, I think my stomach really can only take so much food in a darn day and yet my body can muster extreme endurance. So i’m looking for a healthy dialogue between my gut and my neuromuscular self. If I’m being honest, I really do think that cultivating a balance between my digestion and exertion equals a natural deficit.

[Callisto]

I think my stomach really can only take so much food in a darn day and yet my body can muster extreme endurance. So i’m looking for a healthy dialogue between my gut and my neuromuscular self. If I’m being honest, I really do think that cultivating a balance between my digestion and exertion equals a natural deficit.

That makes sense. And so long as you feel healthy in both body and mind, I would always support people doing self-experimentation.

[Nathan_Toben]

Day 7

Notes: Down 1lb from yesterday. Trying to figure whether i can join in for zornfast. I have a 20-miler this morning plus 4hrs on the bike today. Tomorrow I have an easy hour run plus 7hrs on the bike so I am concerned about burning lean muscle mass despite hearing that this is largely avoided when totally fasting. I’d love to go from breakfast after this morning’s run to dinner Saturday for a total of 30hrs. But it might not be in the cards.

[Nathan_Toben]

Notes: cut my 20-miler super short yesterday morning. Had nothing. Still though managed 90-mins plus a 30min walk back to my truck. Laid in the sauna afterwards feeling defeated with an upset stomach wondering if i should fast or binge…because those are my only options right? I told myself to wait until i was in a more grounded place to make a decision. Ended up working my shift fasted, fasting for 20hrs and then breaking it with good foods after work at 3pm. Took a nap and woke up not exactly hungry for dinner. I almost made it though because I wanted it but I restrained myself, had a nibble of dark chocolate and ACV and went to bed. Down to 164 today and feel like I have flushed out some inflammation. Ahead of schedule by 4 days but expect that margin to diminish in he coming week.

[T1mbro]

Nathan , just wondering why you are so strict with protein. Most of the stuff I’ve heard suggests that protein is needed to rebuild especially with exercise and you do a lot (I also ultra run). It’s my understanding that excess protein does not raise blood sugar as it is only converted on demand.

An example would be Zach Bitter who STARTS with 2lbs of red meat a day as the minimum.

[Nathan_Toben]

I wouldn’t consider my intake of protein to be strict, i often get 2 grams per kilogram of lean body mass which is more than enough for repair even for someone as active as me. What I was referring to was just how easy it is to get an excess of protein with a daily caloric burn of 3k-5k calories.