Metabolic syndrome as a latent form of scurvy? Vitamin C. Loose teeth. Frozen shoulder


apologies to @Q66 for taking an excursion away from Vitamin K2 toward Vitamin C and collagen.

Loose teeth are a symptom of a list of things. more than I know or researched. It seems many people dream of loose teeth or losing teeth :tooth:. But it is also a symptom of scurvy.

It makes me think about collagen synthesis and in particular the dental ligament that helps hold teeth steady in their sockets. There are other contributing connective tissues that keep teeth steady as well. Connective tissue having a collagen matrix.

Amber O’Hearn makes a very interesting observation that metabolic syndrome, where many of us start the ketogenic diet investigative journey, is a latent form of scurvy. At about 25 minutes in where she talks about Vitamin C.

If my teeth were loose, I’d look at my collagen health. Consider the amino acid building blocks such as glycine (bone broth) and whether supplementing a small amount of Vitamin C for a short time was indicated, especially if the keto WoE had become unbalanced due to enthusiastic n=1 tinkering.

In my case it wasn’t loose teeth, it was poor healing from frozen shoulder.


OK then. I’m defrosting some bone broth as we speak…

(Bunny) #3

My super bone broth strained…lol

(Bunny) #4

Maybe some freeze dried animal adrenals (glandulars); Vitamin C (real organic ascorbic acid) 500 mg 833% (Vegan Free…lol)?

I would eat them raw but that’s me!

…Roe: (hard roe: fish eggs or caviar and the ovary of the fish itself; the mass of eggs contained in the ovaries of a female fish or shellfish, typically including the ovaries themselves, especially when ripe and used as food. soft roe: “lumpfish roe is most like caviar” the ripe testes of a male fish, especially when used as food.)

…and animal tongue are the other organ meats that have the big C too!

Grass fed organ meats are high in fat soluble vitamin K also!

(Bunny) #5

I wonder how much gluconeogensis (GNG) is going on with eating too much protein, I do not eat large amounts protein in one meal, very little to be honest including eggs raw or cooked, but when I do, I like grass fed quality and meats like non-cured bacon and exotic organ meats from many different species of animals and fish or marine life like chlorella, sea weeds and animal glandulars besides bone broth.

Eating fat, leafy greens and veggies is a higher priority for me and keeping gut bugs happy which I did a good job of killing off most of them at one time and thought I was going to die (feeling super strange like my feet, legs and arms were not attached to my body); lots of actual physical symptoms with no root cause or diagnosis and lots of dry heaving (like you want to vomit or barf but can’t; that’s the gut bugs telling me they are starving to death)…lol

Thought these were interesting quotes to ponder:

“Your health, and likely your lifespan, will be determined by the proportion of fat versus sugar you burn in your lifetime.” Remember that excess protein falls into ‘burning sugar.’ - Ron Rosedale

Dr. Jason Fung: Are long term high-protein diets harmful?

Hard to say. There is some suggestion that high animal protein intake may cause osteoporosis. Many of these proteins are acidic, which require neutralization in the body. This acid is buffered in the bones and then eventually the acid is excreted as phosphoric acid. Because bone consists of Calcium bound to phosphorus, there is extra calcium which gets excreted in the urine. This leads to higher urinary calcium losses and potentially osteoporosis. …More

Too much GNG?

(Bob M) #7

Can we please let this die? I have eaten massive amounts of protein per meal, with no increase in blood sugar. This is one of MANY tests I did:

No rise in blood sugar later that day or the next day. No rise ever. None.

Repeat after me: GNG is demand driven. GNG is demand driven. There is no massive blood sugar rise after eating protein (for most people, diabetics potentially excluded).

(Bob M) #8

And you have to remember that the reason I paid over $1,000 US to get a GCM from Sweden was to PROVE that Ted Naiman was wrong. My GOAL was to prove that protein caused high blood sugar. Unfortunately, no matter how much protein I ate in a single meal, I could never get my CGM to show anything. Nothing. That’s 162 grams of protein in one meal, and I ate upwards of 200 grams in a meal. And if you think the fasting/exercise somehow caused a difference, I ate basically the same meal with my normal fasting from dinner until about 11 am, no difference.

Protein does not cause a blood sugar rise (or fall) for me. That’s likely true of most people.

So, please everyone stop acting as if protein = a candy bar. It does not.

(Bunny) #9

I’m thinking it may not be so much vitamin C issue more than it is a low sugar diet one?

Looking at the letter below I posted in an earlier post, it appears there is a direct correlation with gum disease and heart disease and the low sugar diet not feeding the bacteria or microbiome in the mouth, sugar that is causing the infection or contributing to the heart disease? Fasting and non-fasting C-Reactive protein levels which is usually quoted as the better predictor of heart disease than cholesterol levels along with maybe a high quality three dimensional CAC scan if it is interfamilial?

And to say the least I personally think carnivores get more of the real form of Vitamin C not the analog?

Chili peppers have the most vitamin C out of any plant and it is the real form of it not the analog.

(Bunny) #10

From what I understand it is because insulin is coming in and clearing your glucose so fast that your CGM cannot see it?

I could be wrong?

That’s what keeps the glucose steady is the insulin?

But it is not a large amount of glucose or insulin as if you were eating sugar directly.

Very tiny volumes of glucose and insulin are probably what is circulating?

The homeostasis of the body may be quantifying the glucose and secreting just enough insulin and says I only need this much glucose and gets rid of the rest?

I also wanted to say something about my own little theory about volume and speed of glucose and insulin, the more volume of glucose, the less speed you will have with insulin clearance of that extra glucose, so measuring glucose with a man made meter is what your seeing when it slows down, when it speeds up you can’t see it. Maybe someday we will be capable of measuring insulin at home, when the next evil genius figures it out?

(Bunny) #12

No such thing as “no sugar” before carnivore.

Low sugar is more likely the scenario so definitely some sugar could be the contributor?

Anyway the fact remains that X happened and Y occurred so I’m sure and absolutely positive you”ll figure out?

(Aimee) #13

That’s relief. I love my meat. Would go nuts without it and it also fills me up.

(Bunny) #15

I’m almost afraid to ask what you did eat!

No reply neccesary!

(Going against the grain. & also, Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #16

I think Bunny’s point is that you cannot have eaten NO sugar and not be in ketosis. I do believe that you ate no refined sugar. But if you were eating any carbs, you were eating what became sugar in your body. If you were eating fruit, you were eating sugar. Probably significantly less than the general population, but not none. And since carbs are the only macronutrient that begins to be digested in the mouth, this could still affect dental health.

(Going against the grain. & also, Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #18

If you were in ketosis you were in ketosis… And if you were truly eating a zero carb diet, that by definition meant it wasn’t before you started keto. You may not have called it that is all. It doesn’t matter what in particular you were eating. And this topic is about dental health and the keto and or carnivore diet, with scurvy as a potential answer. Doesn’t mean other theorys aren’t welcome to the discussion. Sugar consumption (refined or not) is certainly relevant in that context.