Meat bad for you ? Cancer risk?

(ianrobo) #21

see this is why I think studies are a waste of time quoting even if they back us up. What is needed is real science about what happens if you eat a carb, or fat or protein.

(Mike Keathley) #22

Yeah I typically want to know if they have discovered the chemical chain that causes something than if they give food, measure, publish. The latter takes enormous time, nuance and research in order to come to some valuable conclusion.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #23

I have found that, most of the time at least, those conducting the studies are usually pretty careful about what they are actually claiming. The blame for conflating association with causation usually (again, in my experience) lies with the press, who report science that they do not understand, and usually in a way that twists what the study or studies say to suit their pre-existing notions of the world. Hence the war on red meat, which ā€œwe all knowā€ is bad for you.

(ianrobo) #24

but @devhammer these studies always have caveats etc but on plain reading the meat ones as we discussed miss so much to make them worthless, the authors are to blame then.

(ianrobo) #25

yep we know the carb cycle, Lustig first brought it to attention with fructose then others afterwards, it is not even in doubt. In debates I always throw this as carb lovers and they simply do not bother to reply/read or listen.

(Nick) #26

Interesting. My experience has been the opposite. All too often, a studyā€™s summary and conclusion make bold puritanical claims that the data cannot support. For example, Willet et Al from Harvard are anything but careful about their repeated math-torture du jour from the poor old Nursesā€™ Health Study or whatever.

(betsy.rome) #27

Wondering if the studies showing red meat as a cancer risk would be different if the meat was grass-fed organic meat?

(Mike Keathley) #28

It had nothing to do with that. It had to do with the fact that they would consider Pizza with toppings like pepperoni and ground beef as red meat. Or something like a hamburger or beef hot dog. Grass fed vs corn fed beef only differs in the fat content (corn fed has more fat) and the fat composition (grass fed has more omega 3 than omega 6 and corn fed has more omega 6 than omega 3). So corn fed beef is actually just fine as long as you get enough omega 3 from other sources.

(Nick) #29

I doubt very much that grass fed meat Vs ā€œprocessedā€ meat would make a significant difference to cancer stats, in reality

(ianrobo) #30

not as we believe that cancer rows because of glucose

(Trisha) #31

I tried to watch it last night. I had to turn it off after 15 minutes. It made me so angry.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #32

Important to remember that the science on this area is still pretty nascent, and from what Iā€™ve read, while the glucose connection is strong, there is reason to believe that it may not apply to all forms of cancer. On balance, I think thereā€™s very good reason to believe that keto is a much better way of eating if you want to avoid cancer, but from the things Iā€™ve read itā€™s more nuanced than ā€œcancer grows because of glucoseā€.

(Nick) #33

I think glucose is important for cancer, but hyperinsulinemia is more significant.

(Crow T. Robot) #34

Not likely. You are giving them way too much credit if you think it would make any difference. This is something that people say sometimes to defend eating meat, likewise, ā€œbut what if they excluded processed meatā€. But you have to understand, these ā€œstudiesā€ are so far down the garbage chute of poor design and bogus conclusions that you might as well be trying to polish a fecal bolus as to tease out such a result.

A) Thereā€™s no way they can control for ā€œhealthy user biasā€, so right there the study is useless.
B) They donā€™t account for sugar and carb intake in these studies at all. This means that somebody who eats every meal at McDonalds is classified a ā€œmeat eaterā€ even though 80% of his meal is refined carbs, sugar and hydrogenated vegetable oil.

(Christopher John Howson) #35

I read / hear so much stuff @ianrobo its hard to remember / regurgitate it allā€¦

did you hear that bacon is bad for you because of ā€œnitratesā€ but there are more nitrates in spinach, (apparently) than there is in bacon, but its ok to eat as much spinach as you want.

I think that was Dr. Adam Nally. but I may have misheard, he does talk fast!

(ianrobo) #36

it rings a bell on Nitrates, damn I am in trouble today I have had bacon and spinach !!

on bacon they class it as processed food yet it is not ā€¦ not proper bacon anyway.

#37

You canā€™t disprove it to them, because their belief is based on faith, not science.

(ianrobo) #38

ah I know those debates based on faith, whether real or not. You kind of have to bypass them and appeal to ā€˜normalā€™ people willing to listen. Remember we are capitalist economies and that is why McDonalds has HAD to change. As the younger generations progress, earn more etc their choices will be become more and more influential.

Hence Amazon buying Whole Foods.

(Sophie) #39

Meat being bad for you, sounds upside down to me just like the SAD food pyramid.
I always heard ā€œyou are what you eatā€ instead it should be ā€œyou eat what you areā€!

When I think about all the decades of debate (I did Adkins 25yrs ago) surrounding LCHF/Keto, it brings to mind a quote from Gandhiā€¦ ā€œFirst they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.ā€
So weā€™re almost there folks! KCKO

(Richard Morris) #40

Fascinating conversation in next weeks podcast ā€¦ we let @bokkiedog do a ā€œMAIL!!!ā€ on just this subject.

Itā€™s hard to separate high glucose from high insulin as a cause because they usually travel together - so you have to come up with mechanistic explanations to discriminate. Personally I prefer an hypothesis with a mechanistic explanation where the steps have been experimentally verified than an associational study for all the reasons that Nick explained (bad data, math torture, wild guesses).

Some cancers can metabolize amino acids (glutamine and serine particularly), plus we still must have a basal level of glucose - so itā€™s not like they have no energy. The theory is to make life as difficult as possible for them until our immune systems can take them out. Itā€™s a race and weā€™re trying to slow the bastards down.

I respect the Vegan world view, I donā€™t agree with it, and I donā€™t believe the science supports it as an option, let alone as a mandate. Veganism in my opinion is a dogma, much like a religion. Itā€™s a very tight line to walk but it may be possible to be a healthy keto vegan. I for one would LOVE to talk to someone on the podcast to find out how they do it, because Diabetic vegetarians and vegans totally deserve to reverse their disease too.

I donā€™t mind it. It is imprecise for all the reasons you give, but it is a simplification to avoid having to teach people biochemistry. If it gets people to switch to post-industrial food sources then thatā€™s likely to be a net positive.

I know @nofructose uses it to simplify his primary message which is to reduce fructose, glucose and seed oil.

My mantra is pretty much learn to cook, and teach your children to cook. That is equally open to slippery definitional gaps you could drive a bus through.

I consider Paleo to be similarly dogmatic. Paleolithic man certainly had access to food that was unhealthy if not outright deadly.

All of these are ā€œJust eat real foodā€ approaches, they just have different definitions for what real is - which was @bokkiedogā€™s point.

I suspect a lot of these approaches stem from an anti-industrialism. To be fair the food industry has not nearly received itā€™s full measure of beating that it deserves for selling food that meets short term needs (eg: bliss point), and failing long term safety. They need to be part of the solution, so after they have received their beating, they will hopefully be re-educated in how to manufacture a post industrial food product.

Itā€™s already happening, McDonalds in Australia will sell you a ā€œdesign your ownā€ burger that comes in a lettuce ā€œbunā€ with extra bacon, garlic aioili instead of special sauce, avocado instead of tomato.