Lowered metabolism - why is this a problem?

(Ron) #81

While I understand the context of this statement (I hope), it still might be good to note for readers of this thread that many people who come to this forum are asking for direction and want some advice on how many calories they “should” be consuming daily. Very rarely do I see forceful advice but helping suggestions on this issue. IMHO

(mole person) #82

I may have framed it badly. I meant there are cases where I see someone say that they are eating to satiety but are told that they are eating too little based on some website saying what maintenance calories would be for that persons body size. We go on about how this isn’t a diet about calories and yet I do often see people being told how many calories and how much fat they should be consuming.

#83

Hi @Brunneria - I read your post with interest as it speaks directly to the question I had initially posed.

When I read your story, it seems like the primary harm you have experienced by having a lower metabolism is that it is difficult to lose and maintain your weight. Are there other downsides?

You mentioned that you can run on 1,000 calories per day. Is that a problem because of excessive appetite or are there other problems?

(the reason I ask is that I continue to experience my lower metabolism as a positive experience with lower food bills, less time eating, better sleep, etc.; however, it seems that I’ve been fortunate in that my appetite remains suppressed)

(Anne Brodie) #84

I have plenty of excess and am personally not worried about getting too thin. I am with you about people giving out particular calorie numbers or BMI, etc. because we are all different. What are other indicators/metrics that an individual can take in account to determine whether or not his or her own levels of eating/metabolism are unhealthy? The ones I’ve caught so far are:

  • Low heart rate (perhaps under 50).
  • Sense of being cold when others aren’t.
  • Low body temperature.
  • The body using muscle for fuel.
  • Waist size (belly fat).
  • I will add scurvy or other nutrient deficiencies.
#85

There should be objective metrics for those two. The others were fairly subjective. For example, top endurance athletes can be 40 bpm. And nutrient deficiencies can exist when too many calories are being consumed, if they ignore a given nutrient.

What would be the least amount of calories a fat-laden person could eat without damaging their body? They would need some protein, right? But any carbs or fats?

#86

Wishing to eat more than 1000 calories a day is not ‘excessive appetite’.

Anyone, man or woman eating that level of intake is heading for malnutrition in the long or short term. And fitting adequate nutrition into a ‘reduced metabolic rate’ becomes an art form that very few people achieve. Whether that reduction is just down to 2000 calories from 3000, or 2000 down to 1000 (or any other variation).

I see a lot of comments amongst low carb/keto/ZC communities about how keto changes your nutritional needs and it is OK not to meet your nutritional guidelines. But they don’t ever produce any hard evidence of this, and until someone does a few studies on this, I consider those comments no more than wishful thinking and hyperbole.

As we age, adequate nutrition plays a huge part in degenerative disease and chronic deterioration. Less appetite and lower metabolic rates will add to that.

Just taking one nutrient, Magnesium, is an interesting exercise.

Due to soil depletion and modern farming, Mag intake has reduced by approx 50% in the modern US diet. Similarly elsewhere in the world. Up to 80% of us have some level of Mag deficiency. Docs don’t test for it because the tests are unreliable. That is in the general population.

People eating keto are more likely to be deficient. Very few realise how deficient, or what the symptoms include. The diversity of deficiency symptoms range from insomnia, to auto immune issues, and type 2 diabetes as well as the better known cramps and palpitations. But those cramps only arrive with severe deficiency. We can be chronically deficient without realising.

Mag is VITAL for over 300 processes in the body, from digestion, the nervous system, muscles, every organ and especially the heart.

The food choices/menus I see discussed on this site are not going to cover Magnesium requirements for most people, and the supplements vary tremendously in price and bioavailability - and none of us can gauge whether we are deficient even with tests by the doctor, since those tests assess blood levels of Mag, when true levels can only be found in bone and muscle cells.

And that is just one nutrient.

Further, it is ethically impossible to run malnutrition studies to see what low nutrient intake does in the long term. The few studies which have been done (Dutch famine and Cambodia) have tracked the health of individuals and their offspring for generations after periods of prolonged malnutrition.

The results focus mainly on the impact of malnutrition on babies if the mother went hungry, but the findings show consequences lasting up to 6 generations (so far) with increases in chronic disease such as T2 diabetes, reduced IQ, hormonal dysregulation, mental health and smaller narrower skeletons.

I am sure that the health of the rest of the (non pregnant) Dutch and the Cambodians was also affected in the long term, although not as easy to monitor.

If I was a woman contemplating having a family, I would be very wary of fasting, and I would be focussing on superb nutrition for a long time before trying for a baby - including making sure that my metabolic rate stayed as high as possible.

Men may not have concerns for their foetuses, but I hope they care about their general health, immune systems and future old age. The impact of malnutrition may be hard to assess, but the consequences are unpleasant (and often irreversible) if we get it wrong.

Blithely doing keto and/or weight loss without great care for nutrient intake and lowered metabolic rate is (IMO) short sighted. Just popping a daily multivitamin and glugging a ketoaide isn’t going to cut it.

(Taleisha Collins) #87

I think they just don’t want to say “less efficient” …
I have never felt better than I do while on KETO

#89

I lost around 60 pounds approx 18 years ago, and kept it off since (with a little fluctuation), using low carb.

But the maintenance has been tricky, and the reduced metabolism makes it more difficult.
Managing not to eat what your body is asking for, day in, day out, for nearly two decades, isnt something I wish on anyone else.

(Sarah Bruhn) #90

It is entirely in relation to weight loss and maintainance, lower metabolism means you have to eat less to maintain your weight. Also a lower metabolism doesn’t feel good- you feel more tired, depressed and cold… as long as your metabolism doesn’t drop so low that you feel tired, cold, unhappy and can’t eat the way you want to and maintain a healthy body weight it is fine.

(Anne Brodie) #91

I am hoping people have data about this. I was surprised at the Carnivore, for example, where I learned of people who don’t eat any carbs.

(Brian) #93

That’s a pretty big statement, and I don’t see any mention of particular studies or data to back that up. More deficient than who?

While I happen to agree with a good bit of your post, i.e., depleted soils, I think you’re painting with a very broad brush.

#94

My brush is no broader than earlier posts saying that reduced metabolic rate has no downsides. :slight_smile:

But you are right about the links - I should have included them. The perils of posting from a phone. Am now on a computer, so here you go :grinning::

The Wiki article is actually a good springboard, and well referenced, which isn’t always the case

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfessional/

Deficiency in American diet

While the following site is selling Mag Oil, and therefore hardly impartial, the reverences are good
https://www.ancient-minerals.com/magnesium-deficiency/

https://openheart.bmj.com/content/5/1/e000668

As for ketonians being more deficient… keto is often interpreted as higher protein and lower veg. Doesn’t have to be that way, of course. Mine never was! But judging by the pictures posted in the what did you keto today threads, lots of people interpret it that way. So do many people without access to information on what Volleck and Phinney call a Well Formulated Ketogenic Diet
https://blog.virtahealth.com/well-formulated-ketogenic-diet/
There is also the constant cry to newbies to make sure that they are getting enough electrolytes, and they can cure their cramps with Mag supplements. That doesn’t happen to people following most other ways of eating, does it? Therefore I think it is fair to say that Mag deficiency is more likely when starting keto. Whether it continues to be the case is up to the individual in the months and years that follow.

A few sources on the long term consequences of malnutrition:



Soil depletion:



http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/05/07/soil-depletion-human-security/

I only mentioned Magnesium in my post above (mainly because it is something I have been reading up on recently) since if I talked about all the other 50+ nutrients I would have bored everyone to tears. :slight_smile: However, Magnesium is not isolated. There is a lot of depletion going on, and a lot of the other nutrients are affected too.

One last point: It is possible to sidestep vegetables and go carnivore - and get adequate/good nutrition. I am doing so myself at the moment. But there are a couple of caveats - firstly the animal products themselves may have been fed on depleted plant matter grown on depleted soils. Secondly, not everyone is equally equipped to absorb nutrients from foods. And we don’t always know about malabsorption until the consequences come home to roost.

Edited about 50x for typos

#95

From what I’ve been told, carnivore isn’t about consuming no carbs. It’s about eating only animal-based products. This is from the intro to the “zero carb” group on Reddit:

Our definition of zerocarb is a carnivorous diet. We only eat meat and animal products. We do not consume plants for nutrients or calories. Some animal products contain carbs (e.g. dairy), most of those are acceptable. Some plant products contain no carbs (e.g. plant oils), and those are generally not acceptable.

(Anne Brodie) #96

I was going by the carnivore podcast where the guests ate only meat, at least for a certain time period. But you make a good point that there are varying definitions. A year ago I thought it just meant that one eats meat at all, and not meat or even animal products exclusively. Is there a term generally used in this community that means eating meat only?

#97

@Brunneria - by excessive appetite, I meant uncomfortable cravings that require self-discipline to resist.

Re-skimming your posts, you lost 60 pounds and have managed to keep it off through your own diligence for 18 years. Most people regain. Presumably, you are in much better health now than if you had kept the 60 pounds.

You have a lower metabolism and are in better health. What downsides have you experienced?

#98

You obviously aren’t reading my posts properly. I suggest you go back and do that, to save me repeating myself about the clear potential downsides of reduced intake - and in case you are wondering, yes, I have personal experience of the things I mention. I am not randomly mentioning constant hunger, and using magnesium deficiency as an example. I only did the research because of how it has been impacting my life.

You may also find it illuminating to read up on people who have experienced bariatric surgery. Many of them go on to suffer a variety of consequences, from malnutrition to health issues, where reduced food intake is a contributing factor.

#99

The OP reminds me of the Thrifty gene Hypothesis. The advantage of a slow metabolism shone in conditions we have long left behind.

#101

Edited to add that ththe foloowing post of mine is not addressed to Margot17, but rather to another post by Daves_Not_Here which has been deleted by moderation.

Good grief. That was uncalled for. And certainly not worth responding to.

I don’t necessarily expect agreement when I post, since this place is for discussion and the exchange of ideas. Everyone is entitled to their own experiences and opinions. They are entitled to express them within the rules of the forum - which I think I have done. I am sure that moderators will step in, if they disagree, and that would be fair enough.

I have answered the question with several examples, some personal, some drawn from studies and the media, with references where relevant.

The fact that you dislike my opinions is neither here, nor there.

#103

Bloody hell! Is there a Godwin’s Law equivalent re: the use of the word ‘hysterical’ to describe a woman’s contribution to a discussion or debate?

#104

@alexelcu - it sounds like we are on similar paths. Full disclosure: when I suspected I had a magnesium deficiency (symptoms were cramps and heat sensitivity), I threw the kitchen sink at it: sodium, potassium, magnesium supplements, spinach, kale, almonds and avocado. However, my bias is towards getting micronutrients from food versus supplements. And, as I’ve become more fat adapted (9 months in), I’ve found I need less supplementation.

@anon54735292 - Ah, you picked up on that, thanks for reading closely. I do choose my words carefully. Kind of like a cancer drug that kills cancerous cells while leaving healthy cells intact, “hysterical” is a dog-whistle that offends precisely the right people.