Low ketones the second time around

(Mark Don) #1

Hey ,

Im new to this forum but an old ketogenic soul lol …

I started my first ketogenic journey in 2015 when i had my car crash , i was in a wheelchair for months and was looking for a diet that helps with people like me … and doesn’t require much cardio to lose weight… so I stumbled upon the ketogenic diet …

Im 5’9 and was 280 lbs … after 2 years of keto i lost about 94 lbs … i was losing weight while recovering from several injuries … i got down to 173.8 lbs with 11% body fat …

I started running again doing my daily 5 miles and returning to my pre-crash bodybuilding lifestyle … my knees started to give up …they didn’t have much “knees” left in them after the crash lol , so i had full knee replacement about 3 months ago … my regular bodybuilding diet with 200+ grams of carbs started to turn into fat … precisely 23% body fat and reached 200lbs

So , I decided to jump back into my old pal the ketogenic diet … it’s been a week so far and it’s taking me much longer to get into ketosis this time around , although im following all the tricks i used before like fasting & MCT … so far my ketone test kit is giving me a very low trace of ketones

I’m 43 yo , and consume around 200-250 grams of protein to maintain muscle mass ( this might be the cause ) … i keep my fats around 120-150 grams and less than 30 grams of carbs … in the past, i used to go 57% fat , 40% protein , and 3% ish or less carbs …

What am i doing wrong this time around ?

And sorry for the long unorganized thread lol

(mole person) #2

It could be the protein. My ketones get to trace levels if I have too much.

(Robert C) #3

I think you are right. Based on 173.8 pounds being an “ideal” body weight for you, you protein needs are around 80 to 120 grams (at 1 to 1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight).

High protein to maintain muscle mass seems to be “bro science” or bodybuilding lore.

Really, you can eat all the protein you want and, if you do not lift weights, you will not build muscle or maintain muscle mass. Your body knows muscle mass is metabolically expensive and does not want to retain more than it needs (for your survival - for example, excess calorie demand in a time of famine is bad).

On the other hand, even with low to moderate protein intake, if you lift weights heavy enough - you will force an adaptation and your muscles will grow - your body wants to build muscle if it is in an environment where lifting heavy things seems to be required for survival.

But, nothing beyond 120 grams (the high end of the recommended range - meant for athletes or high activity) would likely be needed - muscle builds very slowly overnight based on the need for adapting to a load.

Finally, if you are having shakes or bars (i.e. super refined/processed “food”) to get to those protein levels, you should research that issue - I think you’ll find you are in a “1 step forward 2 steps back” scenario.

(Mark Don) #4

Yeah makes sense … because I usually experience symptoms of keto flu around the 4th day but nothing so far … ill cut back on lean proteins at least and see what happens

(Mark Don) #5

I think i made a mistake by having my personal trainer plan my diet … that’s why those ratios are crazy lol … im still going to the gym but only doing machines , and seated workouts
Thanks for the advice … i will try manage my protein intake especially on my off days

(Joey) #6

:+1:+++ to everything @RobC said above.

I’d only underscore his closing point … there is NO sound reason to be taking any supplemental protein (shakes, powders, whatever). You are not doing yourself (nor your musculature) any favors. Hopefully, it’s not your personal trainer who is selling you this stuff.

#7

It’s been a week and your showing ketones, thats all you need. Assuming you’re using pee strips which aren’t accurate to begin with ignore them for the most part.

You’re more or less floating around what most of us lifting do. If you wanted to test the waters maybe switch your range to 175-200. You really don’t need to fear protein but if affects different people different.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #8

“Keto flu” is a sign of salt deficiency, not lack of carbohydrate. If you get enough salt, you won’t experience those symptoms.

As far as protein is concerned, you really need at most 140 grams/day. As long as you are getting plenty of BCAA’s, especially the essential ones (leucine, iso-leucine, valine), you should put on muscle just fine. One hundred forty grams of protein works out to about 20 oz. of steak or equivalent, so you shouldn’t feel too deprived. If you then fill in calories with fat (assuming, of course, that your carb intake is low), you should find yourself with plenty of energy, putting on muscle (remember, that takes energy, so you need fat as well as protein), and even losing that excess fat you’re carrying around. But forget all the old dietary guidance and eat plenty of fat, and DO NOT skimp on the calories.

(Bob M) #9

Don’t let anyone kid you: No one knows how much protein you “need”. And don’t let anyone tell you there’s an “ideal” level of ketones (unless you have cancer or other reason to shoot for “high” ketones).

This was in “resistance trained individuals”:

Conclusions

Consuming 5.5 times the recommended daily allowance of protein has no effect on body composition in resistance-trained individuals who otherwise maintain the same training regimen. This is the first interventional study to demonstrate that consuming a hypercaloric high protein diet does not result in an increase in body fat.

“The HP [High Protein] group consumed on average 307 ± 69 grams of protein”.

These are levels far beyond what you’re being told to eat above, with no deleterious effects.

(Mark Don) #10

Well , im not worried about fat loss because I already lost about 2 lbs of fat in 8 days … and I don’t use protein bars , shakes or any of the other stuff … even Branch chain amino acids are not that useful …

I have done keto for 2 years straight with no cheating at all … I didn’t have to cheat because i had my keto alternatives for anything i craved + if I don’t have a serious injury ( im an injury magnet lol) im usually training 5-6 days a week

I have used way too many supplements for the past 20 years or so ,and only found a few of them that are actually helpful… Real food is the best option most of the time.

Getting into ketosis in 2015 took me 4 days only … i was eating butter and cream cheese lol

I’ll update you next week… hopefully ill be in full ketosis :crossed_fingers:t2: