Low carbohydrate diets are unsafe and should be avoided

(Bill C) #21

Nah. Not interested enough to do your homework for you.

I’ll stick with the fiber. You do what you want.

(Lonnie Hedley) #22

I graciously accept your surrender. :grin::joy::rofl:

(Bill C) #23

Fortunately, most people on this site are here to learn and educate others. I try to contribute where I can and have learned a lot from people who post hard data.

On the other hand, you have naysayers, people who basically reject anything than is posited as another POV. These people never contribute, never present facts, just gripe. From what I have gathered most of these people have or have had serious weight issues and are not in a good space. It’s too bad because it could be a much more positive environment. Instead of sniping, contribute something meaningful or at least try.

(Lonnie Hedley) #24

I’d ask you to do the same instead of posting articles that have been proven incorrect regarding nutrition just because YOU trust the institution.

As I said in a previous post, the medical community is great at a lot, but nutrition is not one of those areas.

(bulkbiker) #25

May I just ask do you think that there are no essential carbohydrates?.. that is fairly accepted “science”.
As the vast majority of fibre comes from carby foods do you not think that maybe fibre is not essential either?

(Bunny) #26

They used unulin; what makes plants survive in cold climates to feed the gut flora microbiome as the fiber source in the study.

This[1] is why I make sure I get polyphenols (grape seed extract) in my gut religiously! As a pre-post-biotic[1] to balance out the bad (reduction) from good intestinal bacteria!

I hypothesize also that bone broth and organ meats rectify the leaky gut[1] situation so to speak …lol

Footnotes:

[1] Sorry low carbers, your microbiome is just not that into you: “…As fermentation drops, so to does the byproducts of fermentation which include short chain fatty acids (primarily acetate, butyrate, propionate), organic acids, and gases like hydrogen. All of this can and will dramatically shift the pH of the colonic environment. As it stands in a healthy or normal gut, the pH of the colon changes from proximal to distal end, being more acidic in the proximal (front) end than the tail end – mainly as a function of more rapid fermentation as food items empty from the small intestine. As the pH shifts to being more alkaline from less fermentation, a number of shoes begin to drop (or can). …”

“… Depending on whom you talk with, a low carb diet is many different things to many people. I think most misinterpret a Paleo or Primal lifestyle as somehow low carb. It can be, but most folks eat a diversity and quantity of whole plants that exceed that of the average American – often by a long shot. It can sometimes be a little low carb-like due the absence of high caloric foods made from grains.

But I often find people who skip grains, sugar and the like as really paying attention to whole plants in their diet – which is, of course, a good thing. But a bona fide low, low carb eater is another animal all together. Whether you draw that line at 25, 50, or 75g a day of carbs, its low I’m afraid from the perspective of your gut bugs.
Especially if those carbs contain a limited amount of resistant starch and other dietary fibers – food for gut bacteria.

That said, even though someone who eats as much as 200-500g of carbs a day can still be starving their guts bugs if those foods contain little to now indigestible substrates (fiber), a generic rule of thumb (albeit an ugly measure) is less overall carbohydrates – especially when you start dropping below 75-100g a day – translates into a dramatic drop in the amount of food reaching your colon where the vast majority of your intestinal microbial community resides. (There are exceptions to every rule, but follow my logic for a moment). …”

“…A bit of a paradox in all of this is the increased likelihood that a low carb microbial community will most certainly lead to increased gut permeability – a well-known phenomenon whereby microbial parts (lipopolysaccharides, which leads to metabolic endotoxemia) and whole microbes themselves (bacteremia) leak from the intestinal track into the blood, leading to low-grade inflammation that is at the root of metabolic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, obesity and heart disease.

So it is a paradox that a leaky gut that can be triggered from a low carb (high fat) diet – and a possible increase in gram-negative bacteria and a reduction in healthy bacteria like Bifidobacterium – doesn’t result in weight gain as demonstrated in study after study in mice and humans. Weird. …”

“…I hope people do not take this as some kind of attack on low carb diets – couldn’t be farther from the truth. There is NO AGENDA. Again, NO AGENDA. (It’s worth noting I consume a high fat, high protein, high fiber diet). Just wanted to point out some obvious concerns (maybe unfounded) and that if we get a large enough sample of low carb folks in American Gut, we might be able to provide some interesting insight – or not.

Who knows, maybe low carb folks have super healthy gut microbiota (whatever that is). So to my low carb brothers and sisters out there, try and eat a little more fibrous material if you can – diversity matters – and help your gut bugs help you. It’s what evolution intended. …” - Jeff Leach

(Bill C) #27

Excellent article, Bunny. Thanks! I agree with the author. It makes sense.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #28

I don’t know why not. All it would have taken was searching on “fiber” on PubMed.

In these forums, we have to be prepared to present scientific evidence for our positions when it is called for, especially as we are learning just how much of the conventional wisdom handed down by experts is actually lacking in any scientific evidence whatsoever. It seems especially obtuse that you are unwilling or unable to provide evidence to support your position, in light of the fact that this thread is part of the “Show Me the Science” forum.

It was dead easy to come up with these published studies, and there are plenty more where they came from:

So I’d say the science is inconclusive at this point, with cellulose being helpful in one study and not in another, and the involvement of gut bacteria not being entirely clear.

(Bill C) #29

Bunny posted an article above that showed that fiber is important. Also off of PubMed. But thanks for what you posted.

(Drew Says "Eat the Salt, you damned stinking Keto ape" Hardcore Label Licka ) #30

I get asked a lot about the food I eat and told I’m a crank! I respond thus.
What makes you believe that you have the right to tell me what to do with my body? How would you like me to drill you about the food you eat or would you prefer I just tell you all about what’s in the food you eat and how it’s made.

I inform them that we are all born in keto and for the first year or so we stay in keto, we are then force-fed a carbohydrate diet. Long pork foie gras anyone.
Goosey goosey gander
Whither shall I wander?
Upstairs and downstairs
And in my lady’s chamber.
There I met an old man
Who wouldn’t eat his wheat,
So I took him by his left leg
And threw him in the street.

Perceived medical wisdom is no substitute for science.
All you have is bib’a’de bollocks

I’m the real world Science. The science that says it works for me.
Now, would you like to go XXXL with your happy meal Sir. (SMILE, incline head to right).

(bulkbiker) #31

I think it showed that fibre may be important however with the current trend in carnivory we may find out sooner rather than later whether that is correct. As with all nutrition and dietary studies there is no “one answer”.
I think @PaulL has it right when he says

(Bill C) #32

I would agree with that. When the jury is still out on almost all of this stuff I tend to err on the side of caution. As I said before, I think the food pyramid is wrong. The emphasis on low fats and high carbs has devastated the population. However, that does not mean that a 180 to high fat and no carbs is the solution. Keto is great in that it satisfies cravings for many. But high fat with no regard for what that fat is, in my opinion, nuts. All these people who think they can eat polish sausages and the like to their heart’s content are only fooling themselves. They are doing exactly what the low fat, high carb people were doing previously. Neither is the solution. Use common sense when deciding what to put into your body. Your body needs fiber and vegetables. Fruit should be limited only because it has so much sugar in it. Minimal sugar, drink only water and eat a balanced, calorie-conscious diet and you will do very well.

(bulkbiker) #33

I think you mean here

“I believe your body needs fibre and vegetables”

yet you don’t say that.
Instead you make it a statement of fact just after you have agreed with me that your statement may be correct.
Language is enormously important and making blanket statements as you seem to like to do when there is a great deal of doubt is not a sensible path to take.

(Bill C) #34

Mark, you comment is not made in good faith. We are having a conversation about diet. What I say is my opinion. I have already said above “the jury is still out.” If you want to have a serious, civil dialogue fine, but if you are coming on here to impress your fellow antagonists, take me off your list. Anyone can tell very quickly whether someone is communicating in good faith. I reluctantly responded to your previous post because it had a tone of civility but if you are going to play games and issue gotchas, take it somewhere else. If you want to exchange ideas and add to the community that’s great. Otherwise I have no patience for this.

(bulkbiker) #35

I replied in “good faith” whatever that is… you seem to have taken offence… You write in absolute statements which I quoted. You seem to do this a lot which is why a lot of people disagree with you.
If you mean something is your opinion then state it plainly please don’t make a blanket statement and then complain when someone picks up on it.

(Bill C) #36

There aren’t a lot of people who disagree with me or if they do they choose to move on. I disagree with a lot of what I read but I don’t belabor the point because I am here to learn. There are just a few of you that bully someone who does not share their views. The same gang of about 5, you being one of them. Frankly, Mark, I am not learning anything from you and since I don’t believe you are communicating in good faith and I do believe you know exactly what I mean, so please just post elsewhere, on someone else’s thread. Thank you.

(bulkbiker) #37

For someone who says they are here to learn you seem rather closed minded if anyone disagrees with you. However you are welcome to think whatever you like. Have a great life but please remember a thread doesn’t belong to anyone (especially this one that you didn’t even start) and people really don’t appreciate being threatened…

(Bunny) #39

“… When you are on a dirty keto program, one of the most common complaints is by week 2 or 3 you are starving. More correctly, it is your microbiome that is starving. …” - Dr. Stephanie Estima

Saying: “…dietary fiber in relation to gut flora microbiome does not matter…” is like saying “…I don’t need my hands and arms to drive my car…”

“… Butyrate, and the structurally similar B-hydroxybutyrate (which is produced in a ketogenic state) help increase BDNF (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor), GDNF (Glial-cell derived Neurotrophic Factor) and NGF (Nerve Growth Factor) …”

Endocrinological co-factors and how gut flora micrbiota interact with the;

“… the communication between the gut and the brain is paramount, and making sure your enteric nervous system is aligned with your autonomic nervous system…”

Glucose/Carb intake levels and gut flora microbiome ratios effect:

  1. Ghrelin

  2. Leptin

  3. Insulin

  4. Glucagon

  5. IGF-1

  6. HGH GH

  7. DHEA

  8. Testosterone

  9. Estrogen

  10. Progesterone

…and more

(Brian) #40

Actually, my opinions are not far from yours on most of this, especially what I put in bold print.

I’ve been of the opinion for quite a long time that quality of foods matters. And I do go out of my way to try to get the best quality foods I can reasonably get. Perfect, no, but I make an effort.

It is possible that I’ve not had the kinds of issues that some worry about that look at the very low / no carb world at least in part because I do eat a fair bit of fiber through the veggies that I eat. I came from a vegetarian / vegan background and eating veggies has never not been a big part of my diet. The other thing that perhaps gets me a little higher into the fiber category than some is the fact that I can eat 30g or 40g or 50g of carbs a day and really not have issues with remaining in ketosis. Having that much flexibility really loosens things up and allows for more veggies and more varieties of veggies that someone who wants to say stay under 20g a day just wouldn’t eat.

I really can’t say much for other people. I do know there are a very few here that really just can’t handle veggies and the fiber in them is problematic. I won’t say they’re wrong. But it’s not something I can relate to personally because of not having that kind of issue.

I know it’s not scientific and I haven’t quoted any heavy studies. Just conversation, and perhaps an attempt at peaceful interaction. No sinister motives. :slight_smile:

(Bill C) #41

Fiber and carbs have not been a big issue since I am exercising at such a high rate currently. But even if I weren’t there are many things that can provide the fiber that are lower in carbs. Celery, cauliflower, broccoli, avocado, etc. I have found, surprisingly, that it has not been difficult to remain in ketosis even when eating 100-150 net carbs a day. There are probably times when I fall out of ketosis but so far blood tests have only found this to be the case on a couple of occasions. Even so, I am still going to eat that orange or blueberries or raspberries because I believe my body is healthier eating them.