Low carb vs Keto

(Joey) #13

@amwassil Sounds like you are overstating the case a bit here…

If we can agree that even heavy carb-eaters wind up producing ketones to some degree while sleeping (lest their brains die off after a few hours), then this begs the question:

Is there one instant when they are in a pure glycolytic state… and then the next instant when they are in a pure ketotic state?

Like an ON/OFF light switch, rather than a dimmer paddle?

Hard to imagine (for me, at least) that such a binary metabolic switch is how our bodies actually work.

By extension, does our “fat adaption” occur at some moment (e.g., 2:17pm on Sept 15th)? Or does one’s body begin ramping up ketone production (= enter into ketosis) gradually over a period of days or weeks - as the organs/muscles/brain increase their demand for an alternative energy source?

I’m no scientist but from various descriptions I’ve come across I’ve gotten the impression that few of our metabolic processes are black or white. As with most everything else studied in the natural sciences, we find gradations of overlapping processes underway.

So, does this sound like a reasonable clarification as to whether ketosis (vs. glycolysis) is a binary condition?

(Joey) #14

@Ilana_Rose :+1: Yes, indeed. Everything you’ve said :slight_smile:

(Jane) #15

Lowering your carbs can improve your health even if you don’t lower them enough to get into ketosis.

My 85-yo Dad is an example of this. Type 2 diabetic on Metformin (no insulin). His A1c and weight was creeping up and his doctor told him to lower his carbs to under 100 and eat only complex carbs. He thinks doctors are Gods and wouldn’t consider a keto diet unless his doctor recommended it, in spite of my example.

He did. Then once he got used to that he strives for under 50. He is very sedentary so likely not in ketosis. He eats no seed oils thanks to his girlfriend.

His A1c dropped below pre-diabetic after 3 months and he is back to his high school weight (he only needed to lose 10-15 lbs).

(Chris Kornelsen) #16

This is all super interesting to read. Scientifically speaking I wonder if there is really huge benefits to actual ketosis for long periods of if the human body is at peak when it dips in and out maybe seasonally or some sort of interval? From my view keto seems tobe this “cure all” because all of western disease seems to stem from this insanity or carbs and processed foods. But in reality ketosis 24/7 isnt fully and totally natural? Although I do tend to believe early humans would have predominantly ate animals for nutrients

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

I think our ancestors were mostly in ketosis 24/7 simply from necessity. In my opinion it’s wrong to think they could derive anything more than occasional and minimal sustenance from plants simply because plants prior to the agricultural revolution were mostly cellulose. People tend to forget that the fruit and vegetables we know today did not exist or were very different and less edible during most of human evolution.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

@SomeGuy @Ilana_Rose To some extent I agree with you that describing ketosis as ‘binary’ might be an exaggeration. One of the things I hope to accomplish with the Lumen device is to determine just how binary or not. Here’s an RER table that makes it look like fat/carb burn is a uniformly sliding scale:

But does it work like that in the real world? Or is this chart just a math exercise? We know that glucose and insulin in any concentration above a base line interfere with ketogenesis and lipolysis. At some point they literally block both from occurring. At what point? At what concentration? Is the blockage total or not? Does insulin act like an on/off switch that at some concentration flips on/off, or is it more like a rheostat? Is there some non-zero base line for ketones and lipolysis?

I often jokingly tell people who think ketosis is something unnatural that pretty much everyone goes into ketosis before breakfast after the glucose from supper has burned out. But is that literally true? I don’t think it applies to folks who are diabetic, prediabetic or insulin resistant. That’s a lot of people! I think their glucose and/or insulin concentration most likely remains high enough 24/7 to block or severely limit ketogenesis and lipolysis. Some folks on this forum who are in ketosis and have been for a long time report that their glucose is highest and ketones lowest before breakfast. The so-called ‘dawn phenomenon’. What’s going on with that?

I think we can all agree that we’re trying to understand a very dynamic and variable system. And simplification is sometimes misleading. I know I’m guilty of it from time to time. So I appreciate a reminder.

(Joey) #19

Appreciate your reply. Your comment below raises a thought…

Next time someone expresses doubt that ketosis is a natural state, you might remind them that ketosis is the metabolic state into which they were born and nursed. And then they stayed in ketosis for many more months or even years … depending on how quickly their parents began turning them into carb junkies. :wink:

(Chris Kornelsen) #20

Were they less or more? I feel processing them would make them less edible. In nature wouldnt plants and fruits have been far more nutritious and edible?

(PJ) #21

Yeah, probably so. Before I found lowcarb, for nearly 20 years I mostly ate once a day, in the evening. But I was profoundly insulin resistant. I think I had severe hyper-insulinemia for a very long time (and lipedema). I was huge and just kept getting bigger, and friends would be so baffled. I could stay with someone for days, a week, and I ate a fraction of the food any of them did, which I found normal, but clearly messed with their idea of what ‘had to happen’ for someone to be my size. Right now on keto, I eat vastly more than I did during that period, and I have vastly less muscle than I did then, and yet my weight maintains or reduces.

The first time I went into ketosis I felt like I’d taken a DRUG. I was WIRED. I’d never had so much energy since childhood. I think it was just that I finally got my insulin low enough for my body to access that energy. But for me at the time, it really was like a light switch.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #22

What you’re forgetting, and what most people forget is the last 2.5 million years of human evolution occurred during the Pleistocene. The last glacial max ended 12K years ago. What our ancestors had available during the Pleistocene was very different from what we have now.

(Jane) #23

Boy, can I relate. I wasn’t one of those who got fat from binge-eating or eating a load of crap every meal.

I couldn’t figure out why I was so fat eating half what I ate in college and was thin.

I still don’t eat that much, fast all the time and maintain a normal weight with keto, but not thin. I literally eat half what my husband eats and weigh 10 lbs less. With the same activity level.

I am just more insulin resistant than him and he’s a guy. Not complaining - just an observation. Glad I can maintain < 150 without much effort! At my age (60) I will probably never undo the damage of years of carbage and yo-yo dieting but at least I found a way to not be fat and not be hungry all the time.

#24

The one thing that confuses me with regards to keto/LCHF is that it appears that you need to be in ketosis to burn fat.

I started keto to burn fat for running and it is going well. I’m not super strict. I have a ketonix that I have a love/hate relationship with. Sometimes It reads low when I’ve had no carbs and I’m expecting it to read high. It definitely works as other days it can go orange or red. I can do a 20 mile fasted run so am obviously fat adapted. As far as I’m aware I’m metabolically healthy but what I’ve always wondered is if I eat say 100/150 gr carbs does that throw the whole thing askew. I want my body to remain fat burning

(PJ) #25

I had a breath-based keto meter. I sent it back to amazon because I was simultaneously doing blood measure and finally concluded the breath thing was so totally inconsistent it was just not worth taking seriously. Maybe you should just consider the whack readings to be meter outliers and not your body.

I don’t know if ketosis is required to burn fat; it is possible being a little bit above that, if you are generally fat adapted, will still burn quite a lot of it. I mean there are lots of people on diets where they lose fat and they are not keto. Obviously I’m a keto fan but especially for people who are doing endurance sports like running, I suspect there might be low-carb-but-not-keto options you could at least try. I suspect you would know, because you’d hit a wall during the exercise, right.

(Chris Kornelsen) #26

Yes of course but again to jump to the assumption that humans would have never eaten enough to exit ketosis just isnt reasonable. While ketosis is most likely the majority of human growth as it’s simply not practicall to have bene foraging for non poisonous fruits and veggies all day rather than go hunt an animal. Still I cant see a human walking by a first Bush and going “nah it’s not on my keto diet no thanks.” And fruits and veggies no matter what era would have had carbs, however many is up for debate but there would be plenty or carbs in them

#27

I guess my question is - is there a middle ground where you’re neither one thing nor the other. I would say the majority of the time I’m keto. Carbing up for runs doesn’t seem to make any difference to my running so there’s not much point doing it for that. Just wondered what benefits you get if you’re low carb as a posed to keto

(Joey) #28

No doubt there are lots of combinations of macronutrients that people can eat. But if you reduce carbs, it seems you’re left with a limited set of choices…

1 - Increase other macros (protein, fats, or even alcohol) to maintain caloric intake, and/or
2 - Reduce overall caloric intake.

You can embrace #1 by increasing your protein intake. Reasonable people still disagree on whether - for an otherwise healthy individual - this can produce health problems at some point.

Another option is to increase your caloric intake with alcohol. Most agree that too much of this approach will impair your life (marriage, job prospects, parenting skills, driving privileges…)

Alternatively, if you adopt #1 by increasing fats, at some point you’ll enter ketosis

Then again, there’s always option #2, i.e., reducing your caloric intake to a level below your energy use requirements. You’ll certainly lose weight, but at some point you’ll also encourage your metabolic rate to decrease and preserve what’s left … and eventually enter starvation mode (in which case you’ll lose fat, muscle, brain/organ function…)

Not sure what other possibilities there are?

(Joey) #29

Phinney & Volek’s book on athletic performance while on low-carb eating has plenty of intriguing hard science on this topic. Well worth a look. “The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance” is the title.

(Robert C) #30

I would say flexibility - once you are at goal weight, staying in ketosis for 90+ percent of the week (or month) is probably best.

But, if it is not a slippery slope for you(!), being able to go to your friend’s favorite pizza place, or have an orange in a park on a summer afternoon or travel to Italy and enjoy some local food could work on low carb (and a lot more difficultly on Keto).

(PJ) #31

I lost weight well by under-eating and much of my hair fell out. Now, my daily offering to the please-make-my-hair-thicker-again Gods is that I EAT ENOUGH. :roll_eyes:

By ‘other options’ I meant, as I said, not eating keto, just eating low-carb. Nothing else would change except the more carbs you have in your diet the greater the menu options.

#32

Thanks - have read the book. I always feel these kind of books relate more to elites though.