Long term health with Keto

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #44

Did you miss the part about viable plant protein, in the quantities required for human survival, not being readily available until very recently in human history?

#45

Walnuts have been around for far longer than 100 years.

Letā€™s see a human society subsist solely on wild land animals for generations without milk of another specie.

Feedlot animals and farmed fish are fed rancid oils. Itā€™s the lipid peroxides that cause issues and not intact lipids.
-https://www.google.com/search?q=lipid+peroxides+insulin

Iā€™ve done self feeding experiments with high quality non rancid non molded whole walnuts. 100 grams of walnut meat per day after physical activity and the fat/protein always ended up in my legs and made my legs feel so much fuller.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #46

What part of a pre-agricultural diet do you think consisted of walnuts, in an amount that met human protein needs, across all human populations? ( Remember, this is the science part of our forumā€¦ )

Iā€™m sure you know those paper-shell walnuts, with giant meats, didnā€™t exist back then?

#47

:rofl:

You donā€™t think itā€™s kinda arrogant to believe our ancestors lacked intelligence to plant nuts in abundance?

Humans are omnivores and weā€™ve been planting our own food for a lot longer than 10000 years. The arrogance of modern humans is unbelievable. A small squirrel has the instinct to plant more nuts after it tastes some but apparently our ancestors never did?

Neither did fatty animals. Weā€™ve bread everything to be higher in calories but wild walnuts arenā€™t that much smaller. Only the walnuts from USA are paper shell and hence why theyā€™re rancid most of the time.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #48

You still havenā€™t explained how large human populations around the world, made these nuts, or any other high quality protein rich plants, a significant part of their diets.

Neolithic Revolution

The introduction of agriculture has not necessarily led to unequivocal progress. The nutritional standards of the growing Neolithic populations were inferior to that of hunter-gatherers. Several ethnological and archaeological studies conclude that the transition to cereal-based diets caused a reduction in life expectancy and stature, an increase in infant mortality and infectious diseases, the development of chronic, inflammatory or degenerative diseases (such as obesity, type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular diseases) and multiple nutritional deficiencies, including vitamin deficiencies, iron deficiency anemia and mineral disorders affecting bones (such as osteoporosis and rickets) and teeth.[87][88][

Your fondness for walnuts ( I really like them too ) has little to do with the nutritional science we are discussingā€¦

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #49

There is scant evidence that prior to the start of the Holocene plants were anything other than a minor nutritional footnote in human evolution. On the other hand, thereā€™s a boatload of evidence that both fat and meat played the major roles that made us what we are.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #50

Evidence?

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #51

To give credit where credit is possibly due, according to my link above:

Archaeological data indicates that the domestication of various types of plants and animals happened in separate locations worldwide, starting in the geological epoch of the Holocene 11,700 years ago.[4] It was the worldā€™s first historically verifiable revolution in agriculture. The Neolithic Revolution greatly narrowed the diversity of foods available, resulting in a downturn in the quality of human nutrition.[5]

~1300 Years might give some wiggle room for " a lot longer " in human years, but not geologicā€¦

So Consistency could rightfully argue that plant eaters have embraced poor health for longer than 10,000 yearsā€¦:grin:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #52

Unfortunately, thereā€™s was also the Younger Dryas:

18kyr

Just when the last glacial max was petering out around 15k years ago, the Younger Dryas event hit earth. For a couple thousand years it was touch and go whether or not the max would really end and the Holocene actually happen. Fortunately for us it did.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #53

This is apparently what happened for the vast majority of our evolutionary history. Agriculture is only about 12,000 years old, if I recall correctly. Herding goes back quite a bit longer, but itā€™s still a small percentage of the two million years of human evolution. I donā€™t know when the mutations occurred that allowed people (Maasai and northern Europeans) to consume dairy in adulthood, but they are very recent in evolutionary terms. The cessation of lactase production after weaning is the human genetic norm.

#54

To minimize the aging pathways associated with proteins, do you think it is better to lower protein and increase fat intake, e.g., eat egg yolks instead of whole eggs? Throwing out the egg whites seems to be a big waste of food though. Maybe just add more animal fat such as butter to food?

(Joey) #55

I suggest we eat the stuff that works best for us at various points in our lives.

Donā€™t quote me on this but weā€™re gonnaā€™ die.
'til then, eat, poop and be happy. :vulcan_salute:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #56

I wouldnā€™t worry about it. The life expectancy of Americans was going up until we started following the dietary guidelines. The average lifespan started to decline a few years ago, which has life insurance companies and their reinsurers going crazy with worry. There is a frightening presentation on YouTube at one of the Low Carb Down Under conferences a few years ago, in which an executive at Swiss Re explains the trends and pins the blame on the consumption of refined carbohydrates.

The signs of healthy diet in a population include increasing life expectancy and increasing average height, btw. When those trends start to reverse themselves, things are not looking good.

(Joey) #57

Arenā€™t those the same insurance folks famous for having troughs of bagels & donuts in all their cushy conference rooms? Actuarial alert.

#58

They kept planting nuts to get more nut trees. Youā€™d be surprised what someone can accomplish when theyā€™re determined.

Is planting nuts for nut trees considered agriculture?

Iron overload in humans attempting the carnivore diet with wild animals.

The chart youā€™ve posted is of Greenland. Any for Europe?

(Brian) #59

I donā€™t doubt what youā€™re saying, Bob. Itā€™s possible that what I remember was from old sources or questionable ones. Iā€™m certainly interesting in hearing about legitimate longevity studies. I do know there have been quite a lot of changes in how the Jewish population might live (and eat) over the past 70 years, well, since 1948 in particular. I do know that Israel has some really incredible things happening in the field of agriculture and food production.

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #60

Only if you think squirrels are farmersā€¦

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #61

Not anymore.