Little advice please

#1

Hi. It may seem strange to start off by saying I dont want to do Keto but its becasuse I know I wouldnt stick to it. So why am I here?

Well I really want to reduce my overall carbs, particularly sugar, but not feel drained or crappy in the process. And I wanted to know if it is possible to have the best of both worlds, i.e. use carbs AND ketones for energy? Or is it all or nothing?

If so, under what circumstances does that work? Can I have low carb breakfast for example, and use ketones, then use carbs after a carby meal? Can you switch between low carb and high carb days? Is it that simple?

The reason i ask is I would like to reduce the amount of carbs I eat (cereals, oat bars, and bread in particular) to reduce general inflammation and reduce the carb build up in my digestive tract. I snack a lot, mostly carb based, and I’m sure my tummy is constantly packed with digesting carbs! But I want to still have plenty of energy and be able to eat as often as I like, because I have chronic fatigue syndrome, I feel i need to eat very often to keep energy up. I have no weight issues btw.

Thank you.

#2

I have little time and brain at the moment and we have so knowledgeable folks here so I let that part to them.

But I can talk about my own experiences about not doing keto fully :slight_smile: Or at all but being low-carb.
When I left high-carb maybe 11 years ago, I went low-carb, far from keto. It was AWESOME, I even lost fat without effort! But had to go lower eventually.
Even then, my keto was 40g net and way higher total carbs. It didn’t bring benefits except fat adaptation, that was cool! And getting even lower-carb habits. My carb intake slowly went lower on my on/off keto years, it was the best I could do.
I couldn’t even do my 40g net carbs keto before my low-carb years. But I never had to be strong or resist temptation (not in my skillset or attitude) or suffer. Things go near naturally, I train myself a bit but no force :slight_smile: And my woe just got better and better.

So if you can’t stick to keto, well neither can I and going keto still was one of my best ideas ever.
Maybe low-carb is enough for you, who knows? Maybe a healthier high-carb is enough for you though I think most people would do well to try low-carb, we can’t even know if it’s awesome and easy until we try. It was super easy for me and only gave me benefits, I think… As I kept my rare off days when I had a good reason. But those days were very rare and they changed too, it’s cool how much we can change! Never think you can’t stick to something (at least most of the time, 100% takes a special personality or need) before you try it. It may seem strict. It may be strict - and still not too hard but rewarding!

Stop eating sugar. IDK why cereal is considered food, I wouldn’t eat that but I am biased, it makes so zero sense to me… I tried it when it came to my country and it was another, less enjoyable candy in the supermarket.
Maybe focus on GI when you can’t stop eating carbs. But it should be easy to stop eating carbs alone and in really big amounts… Eating things together or in the right order may help.
But try to eat low-carb :slight_smile: You can have so great food there. If it’s not keto, I consider it very easy too but my high-carber SO has it differently so okay, not for everyone.

You always can use carbs, your body is made for that. Ketones… Well if you eat carbs all the time, you don’t get that. It’s possible you are in ketosis every morning and you ruin it later but not everyone goes into ketosis in 10-12 hours after a carby meal… It’s way more sure not to eat the carbs to begin with. But if you start to eat much carbs later in the day, that sounds good to me, it surely is very beneficial for me… As carbs mess up things while next day is almost tabula rasa but it’s not true for everyone.

Try keto snacks, there are good ones :slight_smile: Maybe you will like them.

But of course, you can use fat and carbs for energy on the same day, most people probably do that as normal eating is both high-fat and high-carb… Maybe not everywhere…?
But for ketones, you should stop eating much carbs, probably for longer.
IDK what is wrong with going on/off ketosis but many people dislike that. I never had a big problem with it but too high carbs mess with me and even keto can be too carby for me. So it’s a moot point for me, I just don’t feel any problem when I go off keto 2 times a week. It’s just as bad as being barely in ketosis with lots of plant carbs, I don’t feel I get any benefits compared to low-carb…

You don’t know what level, what actual woe works for you best. Try keto or just low-carb, focus on health, cut sugar first and whatever you can… Your body can persuade you way better than science as you FEEL the benefits and that’s great. And we are all individual and experiments are faulty etc.

Good luck!
Try whatever you can and think good, never think if you can’t commit your life to keto, you shouldn’t even try to reduce your carbs seriously :wink:

#3

If you don’t want to eat keto: lower carb is better than high carb; low carb is better than lower carb; and ultimately no carb is better than any carbs. Eating mostly starches is better than eating mostly sugars.

Not everyone experiences unpleasant symptoms starting keto. I did not. And those who do generally get over it within a few weeks. I ate bog standard SAD for 7 decades before going keto. It’s the best thing I ever did for myself.

I suspect your ‘chronic fatique’ syndrome would clear up pretty quick if you committed yourself to keto. I am of an age where overall lack of energy and alertness are common. I suffer from neither. Smarten up! and best wishes.

#4

It’s the unpleasant symptoms which are a big put off. Given i have CFS, i fear the change from high carb to no carb would induce a big crash.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

I developed a form of chronic fatigue from a viral infection in 2006. I began a ketogenic diet in 2017. I have found that while I don’t have the super-abundant level of energy that many people on keto post about, I feel normal. And I can, for example, spend four hours mowing the lawn without needing to spend the next two days in bed. (For me, when I think about it, I guess this does qualify as super-abundant energy.)

The key, for me, is to avoid eating more than a minimal amount of carbohydrate. From 2006 to early 2017, I was hungry all the time, even when my belly was stuffed to the (literal) bursting point with pasta or rice. And I was exhausted, even though constantly eating.

I began by cutting out all sugar from my diet, because I watched Dr. Robert Lustig’s lecture on fructose (“Sugar: The Bitter Truth,” available in a number of iterations on YouTube). I immediately started to feel an improvement, even though I was still eating a lot of grains and starches. After a couple of weeks, though, I decided that if abstaining from sugar made me feel that good, it would be worth going full-on ketogenic, to see if I felt even better. And I certainly did.

What I have found is that my need for constant fuel was created by eating so much carbohydrate. Once I lowered my carb intake to the minimum, I stopped being hungry all the time. In fact, I had fat to lose, so my appetite actually dropped dramatically, so I could eat as much as I wanted (not as much as I could, as much as I wanted) and burn both the fat I was eating and some of my excess store. I lost 80 lbs./36 kg without consciously exercising, without counting a single calorie, and without going hungry. The key was to eat only when I was hungry, to eat enough to satisfy my hunger (neither under- nor overeating), and not to eat again until I was hungry again.

These days, instead of filling myself to the point where my stomach is about to rupture (remember the guy in that Monty Python movie?), I find myself satisfied when my stomach is probably no more than half full. I have found that protein and fat are tasty and nourishing, whereas carbohydrate just keeps making me hungry for more. (There are physiological reasons for this, when you are ready for a deep dive into human biology.)

After about a year on keto, I found that I stopped wanting to eat before noon, so these days I usually only eat a lunch of leftover meat around 2 p.m., and then supper with the family around 7 p.m. or so. It’s very rare that I eat in the mornings, these days.

(Polly) #6

Hi. It sounds to me as though the Harcombe Diet would suit you. Have you read any of Dr Zoe Harcombe’s books? She also has a website.

https://www.dietandhealthtoday.com/sign-up/

#7

I don’t know you or your issues on a personal note but from your post I say this:

cause you KNOW the right way, ya just ain’t there mentality to go all in.
I know, I walked that path and darn if it ain’t hard to wanna DO ALL ya can for you but it is just a PIA long term when I wanted instant overnight results and my brain couldn’t fit what I wanted to do, in my ‘wanted overnight timeframe’ but in the end…yea you know what it takes and at some point ya pony up, go all in, and MAKE THE FOCUS of your life on THAT change you decided is right for you and you say, point blank, F THE PAST and forward movement…and I say from the bottom of my heart, I feel ya on it. Hard darn flip to make but once there, cause you are flirting with it :slight_smile: is take that biggest darn step into the unknown!!! Unknown is scary and we change and we wonder and more but ya know one thing, it is forward movement directly at your goals and wants, so darn it can’t be that darn of a bag thing :wink: Yea I had to do it also and it ain’t easy by any means in the ol’ brain.

"stepping down the carbs’ is great for those ‘who can’ and do well.

you are not one of them :slight_smile: You must be PUT ON A PLAN and your KETO PLAN is the best way forward. You can ‘have alot’ and if one researches your ‘keto plan’ with the macro of eat ONLY 20g total carb’ per day you find you in how to make that work…key being big fat intake and good protein intake also then helps you ‘change the body’ and find balances/healing/hormone changes that will all WORK FOR YOU and never against you. Yea, we all had to figure this out but darn it works LOL

You do not ‘need to eat often’ for energy and life…you need to eat ‘the right’ things to heal/repair the body for it do just that :slight_smile:

Mixed up signals and mixed up mind on alot of carbs and not knowing where to travel on how to fix it all. I SO GET THAT!

Your step. Go all in. Simple as that and pony up that commitment and say…wow what will thing bring and start to leave that ol’ past behind that has caught you up in some useless sprial. Off carbs our mental focus clairfies to show us the way forward more better realities of our life changes we need so…take the walk, go for it!

wishing you the best of the best :slight_smile: you got this, IF YOU WANT IT! Changes will only happen IF YOU make them happen for yourself. No one on this earth can do that for you!

(Edith) #8

The body needs to get to the point where is can produce ketones by metabolizing fat. That usually begins to happen after we have depleted our muscles of the sugar they have stored, glycogen. Then over the course of about six weeks, give or take, our bodies have to learn to use fat as their main fuel source. We call this getting fat adapted. (Although, fat adaption is really more of a gradual occurrence. Your muscles WILL feel like lead, but starting around the 6-week mark, you will notice the feeling of lead will become less and less over the following weeks.)

My advice would be to go full keto and then once you are fat adapted, figure out what level of carbs will work for your particular situation. If you are metabolically unhealthy or have a carb addiction, you may find you really need to keep those carbs low to keep the cravings down to a minimum. If you are not metabolically challenged, you may find there is a certain level of carbs that allows you flexibility to go back and forth between the ketogenic and glucogenic (hum, is that a word?) states. I think being fat adapted makes it easier to go back and forth.

If you just lower your carbs a little, you could end up in carb purgatory - not enough carbs to get all your energy from sugar burning, but too many carbs to get your energy from fat metabolism and ketones. That would definitely cause a feeling of low energy.

Like I mentioned, maybe start by going all the way to keto, but still having lots of little meals with fat and protein, staying within 20-40 grams of carbs a day, to keep your energy levels up? Then once fat adapted, play with your carb levels.

Unfortunately, we are all so different, what works from one doesn’t work for another. You will have to just give it a go and see how YOU feel. But, please keep us informed if you give it a go and let us know what happens. You may even want to journal it in a thread. Your findings could be useful for someone else with CFS.

#9

That’s low-carb and it feels great! :smiley: (Well felt until my body tasted extreme low and fell in love. But it’s still pretty neat ;)) Many people use that, why would it be a problem?

I never had all my energy from sugar burning as my primary fuel always was fat. I always used mostly fat while eating a ton of carbs and using them too. It wasn’t ideal but worked, of course, the human body can use both.

Okay, that’s me but I met mere low-carbers and they didn’t complain either, they enjoyed the less carby woe (or not and went back to some healthy carby woe for them).
The body simply doesn’t make ketones but uses the fat for fuel just fine, along with the carbs, it works.
When does it not? It sounds logical that is possible but when and why? The human body should be able to use fat even without fat adaptation, it’s just different then somehow. But surely uses it, we see it that people eat HCHF and function okay and maintain and stuff (some gains, some loses fat quickly, some is bulking, obviously).

Energy is tricky :frowning: If one just can’t eat proper sized meals, only tiny ones, clearly needs many meals.
And it’s individual what helps. My 40g net carbs keto never gave me extra energy, it was about the same as on low-carb and high-carb, it seems extreme low-carb is a bit better, hard to tell yet… But some people probably never will have high energy or it’s not about carbs… Hopefully the OP won’t have a very hard time with it. So many people has the miraculous high energy, lucky folks… :slight_smile:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

Unfortunately, whether we are in fat-burning mode or fat-storing mode depends whether we are below or above the insulin threshold, respectively, and that threshold is fairly low, so it’s easy to eat enough carbohydrate to keep above the threshold. If you really want to exceed that threshold, fine; but the goal of a ketogenic diet is to stay in ketosis as much of the time as possible, and that means keeping carbohydrate intake low enough to stay below the insulin threshold.

People who are very insulin-resistant will have a correspondingly large insulin response to even a small amount of carbohydrate. You may be able to eat more carbohydrate and stay under the threshold, but many other people will not be able to do so. Granted, insulin sensitivity can improve over time, but it takes a while to reverse years’ worth of damage.

#11

Thanks for the replies everyone. Sounds like it’s mostly all or nothing. Although low carb may work for some. It’s hard to know what to do until you’ve done it eh!

#12

Even on keto, carbs matter a lot… And for many people, lack or presence of various items. Sometimes reading about keto it seems it is some magic, it’s all about being in ketosis but it’s not like that. Some of us needs to go lower or stay higher or skip more food groups…
Keto with vegetables hardly give me benefits… It was only good for unlocking fat adaptation. The other benefits required more restrictions. But low-carb was already a HUGE jump after high-carb. The lower I went, the better it got (when I was ready to go that low) but not gradually, I have carb limits where drastic changes happened. Being on or off keto in the first years did very little (I noticed nothing most of the time) as it was far from those special “places”.

So you can never know… Maybe you don’t need keto for feeling your best, maybe keto isn’t even for you and maybe keto alone won’t be enough, you need finetuning. It’s best to try whatever you can and you will see.