Kidney Stones?

(Geoffrey) #1

For those with experience and or knowledge of kidney stones, I have some questions.
Where did you experience the pain?
Did you get them while on carnivore or keto?
If you have one, what do you do about it?

The reason for this inquiry is, this morning I woke up to a severe stabbing pain in my lower groin. To be more specific, in between my thighs near where my prostrate is. The pain is not constant but in the last two hours it’s hit me about five or six times.
Could this be a kidney stone?
I’ve watched some videos from Carni doctors that say that one wouldn’t get stones while on carnivore but I’m wondering, could you have them before starting this woe and then because of the diet they suddenly start to pass?
I’ve read where taking magnesium and potassium is supposed to help prevent kidney stones and I’m taking 500 mg of magnesium citrate every other day and my electrolytes have magnesium in them. Is there a different type of magnesium I should be taking?

Any input is welcomed.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

The pain in your groin could be referred kidney or gall stone pain, but go see your doctor about it.

Dr. Annette Bosworth (“Dr. Boz” on YouTube) says that what happens on keto or carnivore is that stones that were lodged in place start to shrink, and then they can move around and cause pain. It’s not that the change of diet caused them, it’s that it’s helping them go away, and now you’re more aware of their existence.

You are not very likely to grow new stones with the new diet, so put that out of your head. But getting through the shrinking process is difficult. Dr. Boz’s advice is to suck it up and get through it, but that can be very difficult. I was in hospital once with a roommate who was in for kidney stones, and he said his nurse had both given birth and had kdney stones, and she told him that the kidney stone pain was worse than the labor pains.

One of the causes of kidney stones is a high-oxalate diet. Cutting out plant foods altogether allows the body to start dealing with the oxalic acid; the problem is that the crystals can do damage as they leave the body. So we want to get rid of the oxalates, but at a rate that causes minimal damage. That’s another reason that going carnivore can cause us to become aware of stones that had formed while we were on our old diet.

In any case, it’s time to see the doctor. There are non-invasive treatments for stones, such as ultrasound, so there are things that can be done. A word of advice, forgive me: DO NOT tell the doctor you have kidney stones; just stick to describing the symptoms and leave the doctor free to come up with the diagnosis. If you say what you think the problem is, you are likely to prematurely narrow the focus and prevent an accurate diagnosis. That’s my experience, and I hopw you will profit from it.

#3

Citrate is one of the worst for absorption, other than Oxide, which is why it’s usually used as a Laxative. Going with a blend is usually the best deal.

I use this, but plenty of good blends out there. You may be getting enough with your electrolyte supp, but if it doesn’t list the form, it’s probably Oxide or Citrate.

(Geoffrey) #4

This is exactly what I was thinking it might be.

Well I haven’t had a gallbladder since 97 so there’s that. I’m thinking that if it is a stone in that area my enlarged prostrate probably isn’t helping matters either.

Definitely plan on that.

It’s been hitting me off and on all day. Most of the time it’s tolerable with just a wince but a few times it’s made me double over.
If it doesn’t get any worse than this I’ll tough it out but we’ll see what tomorrow brings.

(Geoffrey) #5

Ok, I didn’t know that, thanks. Yeah, I use it for bowel issues.
Thank you for the link.
I like that it’s clean too. I set myself up on a subscription.

#6

Could be a stone. Prostate area is a pinch point.

I had a calcium oxalate kidney stone that moved into the ureter. That was 10/10 pain. Put me on the ground, where I curled up and waited for the ambulance. The treatment was highly addictive opioid pain relief during spasms waiting for the stone to pass. The calcium oxalate crystals are like a rough ball of glass shards. Eventually I had it surgically removed. The incident happened during an oxalate dump while on carnivore a few years ago. It’s diarised somewhere.

Calcium oxalate is the more common urinary tract stone on a carnivore diet because the urine pH changes (too low), which enhances the formation of stones from the crystals that appear. It is exacerbated by the stored oxalate being dumped from body tissues and concentrated in the urine.

In terms of magnesium supplementation the salt is what is important. Magnesium citrate is the correct salt versus calcium oxalate stone formation. The citrate is what is preventative versus the formation of calcium oxalate crystals. That, and staying well hydrated. 500mg of MagCit every other day may not be enough. The mg usually is about 11% of the compound by weight. I take 600mg magnesium (as citrate) twice daily.

Being a calcium stone it will readily show up on an x-ray. That is the usual diagnostic test. The doctor either says to go in and get it (maybe zap it with a laser beam), or to try and flush it out with good hydration and supportive pain relief.

Enlarged prostate can lead to urinary retention and risk of bladder infection. There are a few different types of bladder stones. There is a phosphate one that forms with bladder or prostate infections. Urine can have blood or pus in it. That may be microscopic. So, save up some urine for the doc when you go for the visit.

Prostate area pain has other causes as well. So, getting a diagnosis is important.

(Geoffrey) #7

Well that’s certainly something to look forward to. Dang.

Thanks for the information and your experience.

#8

If it turns out to be a calcium oxalate stone that is actually good news. It shows that your body is removing oxalate. It is a painful and unfortunate side effect of getting healthier.

Here is a veterinary tip: If the doc sends you for xrays or CT, make sure they request a whole urinary tract image, not just a focus on the prostate area. Often there can be kidney stones that can be missed, if the reconnaissance is not wide enough. Like @PaulL noted, if there are larger stones in the kidneys or the bladder that start to get smaller, then they can cause disease if they roll into the tubes, the plumbing (the ureters or urethra). So, it’s good to know if they are there.

(Brian) #9

Had a friend with what he called “bladder stones” quite a few years ago. There is a fairly large plumbing network from kidney to exit point so I would imagine anywhere a stone were to get stuck would become a major point of pain.

When I had my kidney stone, it showed up as a dull ache in my back, towards one side, in the left kidney area, along with nausea at the onset. I still have no idea why I got to heave for a while as my stomach didn’t really have anything in it at the time but it was notable. Fortunately, that didn’t last. For me, the ache really didn’t move all that much but it took about two days for it to pass without further incident. I did drink a lot of lemon and apple cider vinegar water, not sure if it helped anything or not, but the stone passed.

Hope you are able to get some relief!

(Rossi Luo) #10

Month ago, I had back waist pain too. My pain happened in night when I was asleep, I worried if it’s kidney stone, and I visited a doctor who is an expert in kidney-related illness, and I asked him to give me a ultrasound scan (or CT scan, I don’t clearly know the difference between ultrasound scan and CT scan, whatever, both of the 2 technologies can see through our skins), and he did, at the last, the scan showed me that my kidney had no any problem. And he believed my illness was Fasciitis, and he gave me some pills made of herbs, after 3 days of taking the pills, the pain was gone.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

Intense pain does that, not sure how it works. My appendix took about a year to go bad, and I’d get these occasional waves of pain and nausea that the doctors couldn’t figure out. Then, one day, the pain got so bad, the cause became clear.

#12

Got to be careful with urinary acidification and calcium oxalate crystals as that lower urinary pH environment favours their formation. It may be why carnivore-style diets (along with oxalate dumping) can cause crystals, and then a stone.

The anti-keto, or maybe we should consider them carnivore or keto wary, crowd point at urinary tract stones as a reason why keto and/or carnivore can be ‘dangerous’ diets. Hey, they may be right in some rare cases. But other ways of eating are not immune to urinary tract problems.

On the other hand, slightly acidic urine can be important to dissolve triple phosphate crystals and bladder stones that sometimes form with a urinary tract infection.

It means that a doctor, or pathologist, needs to see and concentrate a urine sample and check the pH, and look for crystals. Fresh is best (as crystals can form in ‘old samples’).

Interestingly with the chemistry of lemon juice, despite the citric acid, it is sometimes a recommendation for calcium oxalate crystal dissolution due to the citrate salts that form in solution. ACV? Not so sure. Acetic acid is quite a weak acid, as is citric. Might not be a problem.

The ACV benefit might be found in the blood glucose regulation and subsequent insulin control, which would then influence how electrolytes are managed in the kidneys. In particular thinking of sodium and calcium here. Calcium is strongly retained by the body, unless you’re an egg-laying chicken… or if there isn’t a physiological diuresis as we see in the naturesis in the low-insulin state of dietary ketosis. Prof. Phinney talks about that in the book that has a title something like, Art and Science of Low Carb Living. That was a mouth full.

Drinking to constant hydration to avoid dehydration is important management of urinary crystals (and stones). What’s the doc say, “Keep flushing things out.”

(Geoffrey) #13

Update on my pain.
Well it never got worse so I didn’t bother going to a doctor about it and it finally just went away. So, I still don’t have any idea what it was but I hope it doesn’t come back.
I appreciate all of the insight and recommendations from y’all. Thank you a let’s hope I never have to breach the subject again.

(Robin) #14

One thing checked off, whew.
I’m a big believer in waiting it out.
My husband is a big believer in the Waiting Room… to see a doc.

(Central Florida Bob ) #15

I’m guessing the followup posts stopping means the pain hasn’t come back, but I wanted to mention something I didn’t see anyone else mention: diverticulitis. I think it’s more directly associated with that area you’re feeling it than radiating in from elsewhere.

I’ve never seen a doctor for anything that was called diverticulitis before, but at a my last colonoscopy nearly 5 years ago, I was told I had diverticulosis. The difference is -itis is inflammation of the diverticula and -osis is simply having them. Maybe once a month for the last year I’ll get a very sharp pain in that region that’s there for a few minutes and then goes away. I don’t even know if it’s possible that the pain is from the diverticulosis, but from what I’ve heard and read about diverticulitis, it’s like that but much longer lasting and usually comes with a fever.

(Geoffrey) #16

You bring up an excellent point that I hadn’t thought of. I have diverticulosis and the pain you’re describing sounds identical to mine. I would think though that being a pretty strict carnivore I wouldn’t have any issues with that, at least according to the carni docs I follow.

(Central Florida Bob ) #17

When I found out I had the diverticulosis, I tried to find out how to prevent it from turning to -itis and really couldn’t find anything. The doc that did the colonoscopy said to eat crazy quantities of fiber and it’s hard to find any hard data showing that matters. Or hard data that anything matters. I guess it’s hard enough to prove what caused something that happens, maybe it’s harder to prove what caused something not to happen.

One thing I’ve noticed is that the anti-carnivore crowd on YouTube is full of correlation means causation stuff. Someone was carnivore for a while and something bad happened to them, so carnivore caused it. It’s never, “how do we know they haven’t been moving toward that heart attack (or whatever) for 30 years?” It’s always carnivore caused it. There is such a thing as a coincidence. “I’ve been a carnivore for 90 days and I had a car accident!”

(B Creighton) #18

It sounds to me like a small stone passing through. My brother gave himself some kidney stones eating almonds every day and drinking almond milk. I try to keep oxalate vegetable sources on the low side, and now avoid lettuce - although I was never a salad eater.
I blend up a whole lemon in minimal water, and mix some each morning into cold water and some stevia drops to taste. I think I’ve even hooked my middle son with this lemonade. The citrate is supposedly good at drawing out oxalates without letting them form stones.
If the pain reoccurs, I would consider getting a sonogram. You don’t want to ignore a tumor or something like that.

I’ve used whole(not husk psyllium) ground psyllium for periodic colon cleansing. It draws food out of pockets in the intestines. I think it is much more beneficial than just tons of fiber. Actually lots of fiber can be harmful, and can cause constipation. I used this periodically for a few years after having an appendectomy to heal my gut, which was an absolute mess… necessitating a cleanse at least every once in awhile for years.

(KM) #19

:smirk:. Indeed.

(Geoffrey) #20

And yet from what I’ve learned, high fiber is what actually causes it due to bulk stretching out the colon.