Kidney Stone Experience


#1

Hi, Advice appreciated please. I’m 52. On keto for 2 years+.IF till evening most days. Not great discipline in what I eat though. Have always been fit. Ate too much cheese, maybe protein too in the past. Not now.

Barely drink water till kidney stones in January now still feeling kidney niggles after coffee, beer and especially salted peanuts- so cutting back and drinking water more often. 2 pints a day ish. Apple cider vinegar too.

Mate had kidney stones then a bad stroke 3 weeks ago and I hear this is not uncommon.

Anyone had similar experience? Advise and experiences good and bad very much appreciated.

TVM


(Robin) #2

I have no answers, just some sympathy and well wishes. Hope someone here will have some insight for you.


(Ethan) #3

I had a 3 mm kidney stone which was no problem. I learned that the herb Chanca Piedra breaks up and dissolves stones. Its a small somewhat bitter herb.

I took it for a few weeks and it dissolved the stone, and now I take it every day so that I don’t get another one.


(KM) #4

My husband takes chanca piedra too. He’s had stones several times. I don’t think he had any when he started taking it, but he hasn’t developed any new ones since using it daily, either.


(Robin) #5

Welcome welcome!!!
Thanks for chiming in.
Look forward to hearing more from you.


#6

I had a 5mm stone a few years ago pre-Keto. I needed surgery to get it removed because it was wedged where it wouldn’t pass. The two months before the surgery were the most grueling of my life. I spent 95% of my waking hours on the toilet always feeling like I had to pee but rarely doing so. It was pure torture. The week after surgery with the stint was even worse and I literally had tears in my eyes for 7 straight days. Once it was removed the clouds parted and it’s been heaven ever since. I found out a few months later I had hyperparathyroidism. Stones are one of the 22 possible side effects. I had three parathyroid tumors removed that winter and was 100% cured. No stones since. Not even miniscule ones show on the yearly ultrasound checks. Improperly regulated calcium wreaks havoc on multiple fronts and kidney stones are just but one.


(Barbara M) #7

I’m under the impression that most kidney stones are comprised of Calcium Oxalate if chemically analysed.(80% or more)

Vitamin K2 is supposed to be important in ‘helping or directing’ the calcium to go to bones instead of the kidney (precipitating into stones) or heart (for hard plaque deposits).

Butter from grass fed sources and egg yolks are said to be at least 2 good source of K2.

Does anyone supplement K2 or focus on dietary K2 and have additional stone formation history?

I know that doesn’t address any other stone chemical makeup.

Thank you.


(KM) #8

I supplement with K2 and have never had a kidney stone. Unfortunately not proof positive.


(Barbara M) #9

N of 1 is still valuable. Same here with supplementing K2 and not having any kidney stones, we can be N=2. Thanks.


(Joey) #10

Not sure how many anecdotes constitute data, but I’ll respond, too…

I’m another K2 supplement’er with no (known) kidney issues. If you really want to get larger quantities of viable K2 into your system, check out natto.

Supposedly it’s disgusting for those not raised on it (by their loving grandmothers in Japan), but perhaps the most concentrated way to naturally ingest K2 (and the various M sub-components that matter the most). :bone: :tooth:


(Barbara M) #11

Sure anecdotally N =3. It’s all good… Join the party :tada:.

I’ll leave the natto for those who want their K2 in that way. I may expand that horizon some day.


(Brian) #12

Had one early on in my keto experience. Wasn’t fun but it passed in a few days. I had lots of lemon juice and vinegar while I waited on it.

I drink lemon water every day, not for medicinal purposes but just because I like something in my water for taste. (I cut up lemons and put them in the bottom of a glass bottle that I keep refilling until it’s time for a new lemon. Might be some other things I’m getting outta there, not sure. But it’s what I do.) I also like vinegar in the form of mustard and sometimes pickle juice, things like that, so I get a little of that.

I am a big user of both butter and free range eggs so probably get decent amount of K2 out of those, in addition to other foods that I eat.


(B Creighton) #13

What’s too much protein?.. I don’t believe that is a particular risk for kidney stones. However, I now stay away from SAD, including cheese. I occassionally have goat cheese or A2 cheese.

Here is the root of your issue. Need to drink lots of good water. As Hockeylady indicated most kidney stones have calcium oxalates. My little brother got kidney stones after consuming lots of almonds and almond milk every day… almonds are very high in oxalates. Coffee beans are moderately high in oxalates. Peanuts too are moderately high in oxalates. Then although hops in beer have some anti-oxalate properties, it is known that drinking alcohol, including beer, can increase the risk of kidney stones. So yes, you do need to cut back on these to lower your risk.

I frequently drink a homemade lemonade I sweeten with stevia drops for several reasons. However, the citrate helps to dissolve calcium oxalates. Nevertheless, if you do this, I advise drinking with a straw, because the acid from the lemons, can eat away the enamel from your teeth quite rapidly. Others have mentioned chanka piedra. I cannot personally vouch for it, but my wife believes she recently had a gall blader attack, and used it… the symptoms subsided.

There are a number of species of probiotics known to consume oxalates. However, a primary one, Oxalobacter formigenes, seems to not be readily available. I have found it on eBay, from an Indian company. While these are not going to get rid of your stones, they may keep future oxalates from coming in your body, and building up. May K2 help? I am not sure. It has a fairly short half-life in the body, and I doubt much would make it to your kidneys as waste clean-up, although it may get there through the bloodstream. It may help blood flow to the kidneys by removing excess calcium in the arteries, and thus improve overall kidney function.

I stopped consuming peanuts year around, and now virrtually only in the form of about 2 tbsp of organic PB for about 2/3 of the year when not doing keto(which I do in the winter). I eat very very low oxalate during my keto winter spell, and thus, give my body a chance to eliminate oxalate buildups, if any. I’ve never particularly noticed symptoms I was suspicious of for oxalate overload however. During my low carb portion of the year, I do eat a nut mix I make, but only two of the ingredients are high in oxalates… the date pieces and the almonds. I avoid the other high oxalate nuts such as cashews in favor of seeds and nuts low in oxalates… pecans, pistachios, macadamia nuts, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds and coconut… all raw except the pistachios. Salted peanuts are invariably going to be roasted in some kind of unwanted oil… sorry.


(KM) #14

I’m a fan of peanuts roasted in the shell. Tastier, no weird oils, and the extra work means I don’t eat so many.


(Brian) #15

A few years ago, we started growing our own peanuts. I love peanut butter.

After growing our own peanuts and roasting our own peanuts to make peanut butter, I’ve never been happy with any peanut butter I’ve bought since, whether “organic” or not. Interestingly, I have also really NOT liked any peanut butter I’ve made from plain dry roasted peanuts of any kind I’ve been able to buy. I am not interested in anything made with more than just peanuts and salt but I have sometimes wondered whether other things might have been in there and not listed.

Someone told me that commercial peanut growers use some pretty awful stuff to grow peanuts but couldn’t elaborate on what those things are. I do find it interesting that it is VERY difficult to buy organic peanuts. I know of one very small grower, I believe in Georgia. (Speaking of the US, I know there are people reading that are not in the US, figured I should mention that.)

I certainly am no expert on peanuts or peanut butter but I think I have become somewhat of a peanut butter snob. LOL!! Maybe that’s a good thing as I probably don’t consume as much of it… too much work!


(Brian) #16

Perhaps a bit back closer to the topic of the thread… kidney stones…

I started keto after a bad accident, very badly broken leg that wouldn’t heal. I had been a vegetarian for a long time and had “doubled down” on being a vegan before that and was trying so hard to listen to the doctors, supposed experts, to “do it right”. I did not find good health there.

From that context, and at the horror of those around me who thought I was about to kill myself, I went keto. It was a significant shock to me just going keto, and I had the typical stuff… diarrhea, electrolyte stuff, hunger and not being hungry, fasting, how many meals, macros… all of that happy stuff. It worked itself out.

But one of the things I did that may have contributed to my one and only kidney stone, I became a big consumer of almond flour. I was attempting to replace regular flour. And I baked a LOT. I made a LOT of keto desserts. Almond flour was a big thing for me, at least for a while. It was not long after that when the kidney stone showed up.

For whatever reasons, I have made a lot of changes since then, most of which haven’t been nearly as purposeful as might be imagined. I got away from using almond flour. I still use a little on occasion but nor much. What used to last a week now lasts 6 months or more. I just don’t use much of it. I’ve gotten away from keto desserts. I’ll make one on occasion but for the most part, I don’t feel like I need dessert. I had tried making just about every kind of keto bread you can imagine, hated most of them. (I was a pretty accomplished baker before keto so my standards were probably higher for what I’d consider “good”.) I got away from that, don’t really even want bread anymore. And most of all, I’ve gotten way more animal based in my eating. When I first went keto, I was very heavily plant based, including things like almond flour, beet greens, and spinach. (Oxalates anyone??!!)

It wasn’t even all that conscious of a thing. It was more just my natural inclination over time. I’m not a carnivore, probably never will be. But I have noted on numerous occasions that I function best in that end of the eating spectrum and when it’s critical that I perform well (I’m a jazz piano player), I eat very strict carnivore before hand.

Did the almond flour and heavy oxalates in the greens I was eating early on contribute to my kidney stone? Might have. Those are things I’ve thought about since. Honestly, I’ve not been all that worried about a repeat. It’s been close to a decade.

FWIW…


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #17

Trying to separate calcium from the oxalate ion is difficult; the binding is very strong. Calcium oxalate is also easier to excrete and causes less damage on the way out, or so I understand. Yes, kidney stones are painful to pass, but the idea is to restrict oxalate consumption, so as to minimise stone formation. The result is that any stones that might still happen to form will be easier to pass.

On the other hand, if you’ve been eating a low-oxalate diet long enough to feel comfortable that most of the oxalates in your body have been excreted (Sally K. Norton has a Web site that is helpful for this), the situation is quite different, and supplementing might be helpful.


(Bob M) #18

That’s one reason I’ve tried to limit almond flour and even almond milk. But I did make a chocolate pie with an almond-flour crust. It was good, but I think next time, I’ll just make the chocolate part and put into smaller glass jars as a treat.

I did see some evidence that vitamin K2 can help shrink a kidney stone, but it wasn’t a lot of evidence.

I also take some K2 and eat natto when I can remember to make it (natto = fermented soybeans, ridiculously high in k2), so I guess I’m point number 5. But this would really need an RCT, and I don’t see much research in this area.


(Brian) #19

I may be a bit cavalier about it at this point but I don’t tend to worry much about anything I don’t do regularly. An almond flour based cake or similar, I kinda just do it and don’t worry. I don’t do it often. I’ll eat some, I’ll enjoy it, and then it’s gone, no more for quite a while. And often, by the time the end of the cake comes around, I don’t really even want the last piece all that much.

I’ll also be the heretic and mention that I am not beyond doing that with non-keto things from time to time. This will get me into trouble a lot more easily than the keto treats because they are so much better texture and taste to me. No, that never went away, even when away from it for months at a time. I haven’t had a GOOD donut in years (I think it’s been since 2021 or 2022), but when I have the opportunity, I’m gonna enjoy a couple of REAL, sugar-laden, full flour versions, (from a certain place nearly 700 miles from where I live, and only that place will do) and it will be glorious. Having that to compare all others to, I’m not interested in most of what I can buy in the store nor am I interested in what I can make as a keto look-alike. I just can NOT allow myself to fall off that wagon too many times, and that’s easy to do. “Just this one time” is dangerous. (Prechin’ to myself.)