Ketovore in the land of SAD

(KM) #1

I know this isn’t really a keto question, but here goes. I’m shifting from keto to carnivore. The starch and sugar have been gone for over a year, and now the veg is down to mostly what’s coming out of the garden.

Pre keto my plate was 1 protein, 1 carb, 1 veg. Then when I was beginning keto I subbed in a veg for the carb.

My hubby is happy with a SAD diet. So back then, we’d both get the meat and vegs and I’d add an easy carb to his plate (rice, pasta, roll etc.) The veg was never his favorite and would often get left on the side.

Now, we’re getting into strange territory, maybe. My plate is double protein and maybe one other thing - a handful of tomatoes, or some homemade pickles, or maybe a little bit of cabbage or onion or mushroom. Something of a garnish, really. I’m not making veg dishes any more and he doesn’t care for any of the ones I am still eating, so his plate is usually a bit of protein and quite a lot of carb.

I guess my long story question is, do you think it’s a bad idea to cut out vegetables from a diet that’s, well, questionably SAD to begin with? Should there be green beans or salad or broccoli to improve his diet at least a bit? Or is that a misguided idea, are vegetables trying to kill him and they should just go away?

Edit, he definitely does not want to do a natural food or carnivore diet. All of the foods he chooses are carby, and he wants it that way. I can lead him to liver, but I can’t make him eat. :rofl: So it’s basically meat, veg and carb carb carb, or just possibly meat, carb carb carb and a side of bacon.


Hmmm yes, it is an obstacle course full of tripwires and covered traps. Removing processed carbohydrates gets you 80% of the way there. Substitute out high processed bread, pasta and packaged cereals that are not in their original wholefood form.

Put home grown veges on his plate cooked in butter. October is pumpkin month. It’s a fruit, I suppose. But very tasty with butter I seem to remember. Celebrate the gardening skills and production. He’ll eat the veg. And cut down the carb size serve. He may have carb tolerance that is good, but that changes with time.

Fundamentally, if someone cooks for me. I eat it. If I’m cooking for them and they have food preferences, they can cook it themselves. My Labrador is my best kitchen customer. She is always smiling. She also eats kangaroo poo. So her high five paw review probably wouldn’t get me on a TV cooking show.

Mrs. Bear says she has an internal grasshopper demon. She loves vegetables and greens. Protein and low carb veges for her. We don’t mention the ghost squirrel that taxes the walnut jar.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #3

The insulin response from carbohydrate plus protein can be considerable. The damage from all that glucose and insulin adds up over the years. I’m not sure what you mean by distinguishing “veg” from “carbohydrate,” unless by the latter you are referring to sugar, starches, and/or grains. Potatoes, being nightshades, contain quite a bit of solanine, especially if not prepared properly. Wheat contains gluten, which is damaging. And sugar is especially deadly to our mitochondrial health.

If you can persuade your husband to switch to salads instead of those foods, he’d be better off.

That’s right. You can encourage, but you can’t force, and nagging will only make him stubborn. Your best bet is to make the meat so tasty he fills up on that first. You never know, though, because people sometimes have epiphanies and make great changes. But they cannot be forced. For example, I refused to contemplate giving up sugar, until one day I watched Rober Lustig’s lecture, “Sugar: The Bitter Truth.” For some reason, he got through to me, and that was the day I stopped eating sugar.

On the other hand, some people never change, which is why A.A. has the grim saying, “Sometimes we just have to step over the bodies and move on.” Regardless of whatever your husband chooses, however, you are entitled to do what you need for your own well-being.

(KM) #4

When I say veg I’m referring to keto friendly low carb veg. Carb = grains, potatoes, corn, bread and any other starch you’d typically find on a dinner plate.

He’s a picky eater and a carb addict with a sweet tooth … and a diabetic. On Ozempic. Who doesn’t like substitutes like edamame pasta or cauliflower mash, he’s in love with the fake Keto products. I don’t really agree with Any of this, but trying not to make it it about me. He definitely won’t replace carb with veg, so my question is whether bothering to add a fresh “keto vegetable” to the plate - with the assumption it all gets eaten - is any better than leaving it off.

I feel like my understanding of nutrition has undergone a sea change since the old days, I have no idea how / whether fresh veg plays a part in healthier SAD nutrition or not any more!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #5

Well, it is true that studies sponsored by produce growers clearly show that vegetables and fruits provide great benefits—to their bottom line. :grin:

(Bob) #6

If by adding low carb veggies to his plate you could reduce his starchy potatoes by 50%, I would consider that an improvement. But if he’s going to eat the same amount of potatoes regardless, then it might be a moot point.

I do the cooking in my house. I’m currently carnivore, so my wife has carnivore dinners. Before I was keto/ketovore and would also make a side of broccoli, brussel sprouts, or asparagus, and she would eat that too. Now she is not dieting, and enjoys her candy, her morning Starbucks Venti Poison, etc. But even so, she has lost weight as a consequence of me cooking. In short, if you’re as stealthy as I am… lol :smiley:

(Robin) #7

Any improvement is progress. Not everyone wants to or can go totally keto or carni. But the simple act of significantly reducing carbs will make a noticeable difference for most people.

And little progress is often enough to inspire us to do more.
It’s an inside job though, and she has to choose it willingly.
Your example is the best advertisement.
You got this!

(Alec) #8

My recommendation: start off providing lots of meat, but with a decent dollop of carbs… mash/rice/pasta/bread/whatever he likes.

But over time, be sneaky, reduce the portion size of the carbs, and increase the meat portion size… but do it slowly so he hardly notices. Do this until he comments that he wants more carbs… you may find that he doesn’t comment. In the meantime you are weening him off the bad stuff. You never know, he may get used to the meal with only a very small portion of carbs, and he might feel better and realise why… :woman_shrugging:


Sorry, but that’s just stupid Carnivore cult stupidity. I’m fine with people eating Carnivore, and not eating veggies if they don’t want to, but that is just extremist crap on repeat. Thanks to having my veggie and fiber intake near non-existent I had YEARS of issues, leading to a colonoscopy in my 30’s and now permanent damage (diverticulosis). Got chewed out by the guy doing it, told be to start eating way more veggies and get in fiber, all those years of problems on the toilet and digestion… gone in a couple of days.

(Chuck) #10

I have accomplished my goals by eating real food. No processed foods, no fast food, no artificial sweeteners, no wheat. I eat plenty of garden fresh vegetables and fruit. I also eat plenty of meat, dairy and very dark chocolate. I tried keto for 6 months and didn’t like the way I felt. I call my lifestyle moderately low carb. I also fast an average of 19 hours every day.

(Edith) #11

Since you are the cook, you do have control over what he eats at home. If you can keep what he eats at home real and unrefined, even if it is carby, he will already be better off.


Some control. Not the level some people here hopes, lowering carbs drastically. It’s not how it works unless the other person doesn’t care or if it’s a prisoner of ours…
I have virtually no doubt my SO always will eat high-carb, he already complains if he didn’t get a vegetarian day since weeks (I don’t push meat on him, it’s just the first thing I offer as I have plenty for me anyway… carnivore made me lazier than I was :wink: I gladly make a vegetarian carnivore protein dish for him but if possible, I avoid that extra work) or IDK where he is now, he definitely wanted more vegetarian days when I just tried out carnivore… Now he is surprisingly resilient but the meat must be tiny and the carbs must add the volume.
He is totally attached to his carbs partially because low-carb makes him feel horrible. As he is thriving on his diet, he refuses to suffer on low-carb and I can understand that.
It’s different if one has a good health reason to change but even those people may cling to their carbs, we hardly can change that, they need to be ready. Or change gradually if that works.

But we have some level of control, yes. Unless the other person is very fixed in their ways. My SO isn’t choosy so whenever I change my woe, he changes too - but only in the areas where there is wriggle room for him, high-carb and sweet desserts for most meals, that can’t change, no matter how many years pass. I can make lower-carb sweets but I won’t make sweets 10+ times a week (he needs 20+ but I can make big ones)… He would miss his carbs with carbs type own desserts anyway (fortunately he usually eats it with chocolate and not banana and his chocolate is mostly fat).

It’s worth to try various tempting food and find the limits…

That’s about changing someone’s diet, I can’t answer the base question as I lack knowledge. I instinctively would avoid a high-carb diet without vegs but what do I know…? I know I don’t need any vegs on carnivore and I would think it’s only for some people and only on/near carnivore (unless one is quite sensitive to vegs…?) but I don’t KNOW.

I wholeheartedly agree. That’s why I consider my SO’s high-carb diet pretty healthy for him (I would feel horrible on it but he would feel horrible on mine too). He avoids added sugar, he eats fruit all the time but not in excessive amounts and he took zillion other good steps. He adores vegs though, they can’t be omitted unless the whole meal is sweet.

Good luck, @kib1, some of us changed in ways we never would think! If you told me 5 years ago I will stop eating vegs (mostly), I surely wouldn’t believe you. And now I am not even interested in the vast majority of them, not even if I loved them with a passion.
Not everyone can change this much but many do. Some keep their love but choose health, I am glad I didn’t need that but I agree, health should be top priority. And all is okay-ish until our remaining food is nice.

(KM) #13

Yes, that is exactly where I’m going with the post, I don’t know either and I have the same underlying guess about it, that a HC, relatively low protein diet requires “eating the rainbow” in order to be somewhat healthy. :woman_shrugging::woman_shrugging::woman_shrugging:

To add, the Ozempic isn’t helping in this regard; he has no appetite and basically says he’s not hungry for dinner and wants a very small portion of only his faves, but then tops it off with keto ice cream or other snacks if he’s still hungry. I’m worried about the diet but going out of my way to buy and cook veg he probably won’t eat, unless it’s truly a health priority, seems foolish. Once upon a time I’d just eat the veg he didn’t, but I don’t do that any more, so it’s likely going in the garbage.


That’s exactly my gut feeling about it but it’s not necessarily reliable.
Oh, lowish protein too? My SO eat enough even if it’s adorable compared to mine… :flushed: I can’t help it, I need my protein… But he surely eats more since I use meat… It seems to me that even the amount of meat per meal went up in the last years… We both can’t ignore our protein need and can’t imagine a non-dessert dish without a(n almost always animal) protein source. It’s how things supposed to be, we feel what we need. Mostly. My body was totally blind to the fact it needed little carbs during my high-carb decades… :frowning: It told me what it needed but he didn’t complain about the extra, more like it. And extras easily cause problems.
But protein is very easy to eat if you ask me. I could up my SO’s with sweet desserts if it was needed. As long as they aren’t insanely fatty, he is fine with them. Even if they are low-carb. Desserts are special. We don’t even have keto desserts here but I wouldn’t like them anyway, most probably. Ours are better, I even subtly change the recipes to suit our tastes and priorities.

Our (I mean humans) protein needs are individual too to some extent, we don’t all need really much. It may help with satiation and lower-carb, though…

(Robin) #15

This is so interesting to me!
I was a vegetarian (for many years) when I developed diverticulitis. When I went keto, the flair ups lessened. Then went carni and they stopped completely.

I now eat a small amount of veggies, but cooked almost to mush and chewed until obliterated. (especially the fiber out ones.)

Another example of one person’s truth/reality being the complete opposite of another’s.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #16

I beg to differ on this one. Oxalates and other phytotoxins are a real problem for many people. More for some, less for others, of course, but a serious enough problem for enough people to warrant discussion. Many people die every year from improperly processed cassava, for example. It’s generally known that we have to cut the eyes and the green bits from potatoes, but there are still cases in the U.S. every year of people getting sick from the solanine in improperly prepared potatoes. Oxalic acid was discovered to be poisonous after a number of deaths in rural England two centuries ago during rhubarb season.

Watch or read some of Bill Schindler’s discussions of preparation techniques required for rendering plant foods safe. It’s a highly illuminating discussion.


I can see that as well, I’d assume It’s because certain veggies can be hard to digest, so then the downstream effects of inflammation and leaky gut type issues, a handful of veggies will bloat me if I don’t take digestive enzymes, I think in my case it was just no fiber helping thing move through. Between the enzymes and 3mo ago after years of hearing about people in biohacking and health circles talking about Seed Synbiotic like it’s the second coming of Christ, I gave it a shot, not ready to join the cult like wing of it yet, but I haven’t bloated or had any distention issues yet, so it’s definitely doing something.

Weird part is my low back pain decided to fire back up near the end of week 1, hasn’t stopped. My wife who doesn’t have a history of back pain also had really bad back pain which she described as just like Metformin joint pain. She stopped it and within a week it stopped, started up again and it came back. I googled around, and it seems that there’s definitely a link for many with certain pre/post biotics and back pain, weird.


I’ve looked into it all, and while I don’t dispute it in theory, I get the (why) part, unless a person REALLY has an issue, to me, that’d be like me permanently removing all foods that a food sensitivity test shows a response to. Which would lead most into a Carnivore like diet. Problem is, depending on a host of other factors which some, but most don’t address, our sensitivity to this stuff is constantly changing. Then when you go to an extreme foods list because of it, you can hypersensitize yourself to it, which will give a false confirmation bias to keep it out. I’d rather figure out why I’m personally having that issue and try to resolve it so I don’t have to have a much longer list of things I can’t eat, than I can.

I’ll take a look, assuming it’s along the pressure cooking beans type of stuff, deactivation?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #19

Yeah, as well as oxalate and toxin removal.


While it’s true that many people feel better after switching to a low-oxalate diet (at least anecdotally!), many high-oxalate foods are also rich in two other problematic compounds: histamine and salicylate

In fact, some of the highest-oxalate foods are also high in histamine (spinach, strawberries, and tea), and the vast majority of high-oxalate foods are also high in salicylate, including berries, broccoli, coffee, tea, sweet potatoes, beets, carrots, white potatoes, spinach, carrots, and almonds! To name a few.

Because of the tremendous overlap between foods containing oxalate, histamine, and salicylate, it’s likely that some people who feel better eating a low-oxalate diet are actually improving because they’ve reduced their histamine and/or salicylate intake. This is particularly true if the symptoms that clear up on a low-oxalate diet are unrelated to arthritis or kidney stones, which are the only issues credibly linked to oxalates.

Further to what you said, oxalic acid level in rhubarb leaves is relatively high, at about 0.5 grammes per 100 grams of leaves. This is far more prevalent than it is in other parts of the plant, including the stem, and is present in the form of oxalic acid and calcium and potassium oxalate salts. One would need to consume at least 6 pounds of leaves to achieve the deadly dose of oxalic acid, which is thought to be in the range of 15 to 30 grams, smaller doses can still induce nausea and vomiting. When the Brits advised eating rhubarb leaves during World War I due to a lack of food, the British authorities learned this to their detriment. No doubt.
Food prep and safety are very important, not only in plant-based foods but especially in animal products. Having had E. coli HO157 about 25 years ago, I am somewhat fussy about food prep. If, in the first bite, it appears to be off, out it goes, straight to the bin.