I’ve been following a keto diet for a few weeks and I’m pleased with the results but I also like to hear other people’s arguments, so I’ve been watching videos of vegan and keto dieters who swear by their diet and who share their blood work results on Youtube for instance and they always claim they’re doing wonderfully well.
If what they claim is true, how is it possible that people who eat literally diametrically opposed diets get good blood work results all round?
Are people lying or do people react in different ways to different diets?
Of course it is. Sadly one of the Keto dogma’s is the thought that everybody that eats carbs is worse off, and that’s simply not true. No shortage of HCLF eaters in perfect health with great labs.
In the case of a Vegan, they can have good blood work as well, but with serious supplementation as their diet is a nutrient deficient one by design.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#3
“Vegan” and “keto” are not mutually exclusive concepts. Granted, it is easier to get high-quality protein if we eat meat, but a vegan keto diet is perfectly possible, though it takes some thought and will require some supplementation, especially of Vitamin B-12.
Gary Taubes quotes two doctors, both of whom eat a low-carb, high-fat/ketogenic diet. One is Dr. Georgia Ede, a prominent carnivore; and the other, whose name I forget, is also a doctor and a vegan. Both women say that they eat the way they do, not because of any a priori principle, but simply because the way they eat makes them feel the healthiest.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#4
I’m not so sure about that. The latest statistics I’ve seen indicate that 88% of the U.S. population now meets the criteria for metabolic dysfunction, and I would guess that most of them are eating a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet.
No doubt, but I’m referring to people that know what they’re doing, and intentionally eating for health/fitness etc. Not the standard issue SAD follower, basically that you (can) do it.
I only had bloodwork made once in my life (at least I only know about one) and that was brilliant, they said. I was on HCHF.
What is odd in that? I was young with good genetics, my diet was highly nutritious…
It doesn’t mean it was my ideal diet. But not eating our ideal diet doesn’t make us super sick.
Besides, different people has different ideal diets. It’s not like keto = good, veganism = bad or vice versa (it wouldn’t work anyway as there are vegan ketoers). Why couldn’t be both great for some people? Both diets have various styles and some surely work well for certain people. I can imagine that people exist who are pretty healthy on very various diets, they work with 5g and 500g carbs alike… Why not?
What. So many people in the US eat HCLF?! Really? I am sure most Hungarians eat HCHF as this is the normal, tasty way we all grew up with and continued to eat like that… Okay, not me, obviously, I lost the HC but most people don’t make such drastic changes.
Aren’t fast food, cakes, sausages and all kind of treats and sweets full with fat? How come there are many people on low-fat then? I can’t imagine the average careless fatty one* not eating lots of fat.
(*I don’t say that for the US only, UK has obesity problem, Hungary has obesity problem etc.)
Whenever I see shows about obese problems and their diets, it’s super high-fat. Even I couldn’t pull that off and I can eat fat.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#8
Yes, that is the nutritional guidance from the government, lots of carbohydrate, very little fat. And Americans have been following that advice, which is why 88% of Americans are now metabolically dysfunctional.
The idea that carbohydrate is health food and fat is bad for us has been dinned into our ears since the 1950’s, and most people have bought into it. Before then, everyone recognised that sugar, grains, and starches were fattening, and so we ate a LCHF diet. Now, we fear fat so much that HCLF is the norm, and sugar, grains, and starches have gone from being fattening to being health food.
It’s worth noting that the interpretation of blood work as being “good” entails an understanding of the context.
For example, it’s fairly well-established that some people (e,g, “lean mass hyper-responders” - a term coined by David Feldman) have super high LDL levels when on carb restricted eating.
Absent a grasp of their underlying eating patterns, the same LDL figures would be alarming if it were an indication of systemic inflammation (as it might be for a patient on high carb eating).
Instead it is taken as a sign of proper metabolic function for an LMHR, in which case the LDL is part of a “Pattern A” subfraction assessment and it likely shuttling energy sources throughout the (fat-adapted) body.
Another example might be the level of ketones. Elevated levels in a Type 1 Diabetic could be an early sign of ketoacidosis. In a non-T1D individual who is highly carb-restricted in early fat-adaptation will often show highly elevated ketone levels circulating in the bloodstream which are entirely healthy during this transition phase - is highly energetic, feels great, and is in no metabolic danger whatsoever.
Context can mean everything when it comes to determining what a “good” test result looks like.
Wow.
Of course, there are guidelines here too but since when people followed guidelines instead of their tastebuds and comfort when it came to food…?
I suspected it matters that we have fatty pork everywhere and it’s very traditional but people following guidelines… That’s new. Okay, some guidelines sadly was followed, that’s why our number one and almost only cooking fat is sunflower oil. But that’s far swapped with fat, making a diet low-fat is way more drastic and I don’t see people doing that easily… They go and buy cake and fatty takeout and chocolate and other stuff… How people can avoid fat, it’s everywhere! It’s the “soul” of so many good food!
Now I am curious how much fat and carbs average people eat in different countries… I may do a little research later.
Yep. My wife has been doing basically a vegan keto diet with success, although she does eat some occasional meat such as chicken. She is now considering getting off her blood pressure medicine, and her blood work has vastly improved. I would guess most of her protein comes from vegan protein smoothies though. I use them myself to satiate my hunger instead of eating some carb-rich snack.
I’ve noticed many people on keto (not all!) spend a lot of time and money trying to make bread, pizza, cookies, waffles… junk food, basically. If they didn’t eat it before, why all of a sudden, while doing keto, they need this?
If they were following the recommendation of their countries, like the US, or UK, how did they manage to fit all this junk in their diet? And is this junk really low fat?
From my observations when visiting the USA or the UK, the food is made in a lot of fat. French fries with everything. Are French fries low fat? Bread. Is bread low fat? Huge coffees that need to be drunk while walking, driving and working, loaded with sugar and cream, and caramel, marshmallow and whatnot. Is that low fat? Barbecue: one can’t taste the meat, so much sauce on top of it. That sauce is made of sugar AND fat. And the list goes on.
The diet is high carb AND high fat.
But then, lots of people blame the recommendations for having bad health and/or too much body fat. Did they really follow the recommendations?
Cereals… ok, bad. But look at what one portion is supposed to be: 30g. Were people who complain now really eating 30g? Or more like 100?
It depends. I was on Pritikin (very low fat) for years. It was possible, but what I realized was I was always hungry (oats or other hot cereals for breakfast are not filling; eating pasta just made me hungry), had wild mood swings. Now, if you’re a body builder and using carbs at certain times to build muscle, or a cyclist or runner it might work. Even then, people like Tim Noakes, who ran all the time, became diabetic. He was known as a runner and researcher:
Yes, it is. Normal bread, I mean, not those fancier things.
I have found that a Hungarian eats 130-150g (depends on the year) fat a day. We couldn’t care less about recommendation here, apparently, at least when it goes against our joy and convenience but I saw the dietary guidelines and they are AWFUL. So I really hope Hungarians will keep ignoring them - but they still eat horribly wrong, of course and I am pretty open-minded about this, I don’t think low-carb is for everyone or ANY food group is needed… But clearly the overeating HCHF diet full with wrong items that the average person does here isn’t good. Hence the obesity problem with zillion health issues.
Our guide document says grains are the BASE of a healthy diet and we should eat them all the time. I never met a full guide before, I did it last night and now I am a tad shaken. I obviously knew myths and certain lobbies but that full thing managing getting almost everything wrong, no development since decades… That was painful. It could have been worse, there was no vegan propaganda in it but many little meals, carbs with carbs, all carby food groups must be eaten all the time, fat is important BUT avoid it along with salt, add NONE to the food! It was crazy.
Hungarians actually meet the carb recommendation pretty well. That high amount that is usually recommended and what actually works for some people (if they get it from better sources, whatever that means for them) but as an average, along with the inevitably high fat intake… Quite bad.
Genetics and the right diet should do the trick. It seems some people are made for high-carb, they are thriving there while having serious problems at low-carb (maybe they can’t even do it for long). But they probably doesn’t eat what the average person eats as carb sources…
My SO is apparently very healthy on his HCHF diet but he is quite health-conscious and eats very, very differently from the average person - or what is pretty close to that, how he ate as a kid. And while he eats similar macros to the average Hungarian, he actually is active enough not to gain fat (and the items are better too, of course).
I probably could stay healthy on HCHF but I wouldn’t feel optimal and it’s possible several decades would take their toll. Okay, very sure, HC triggers serious overeating and bad decisions, maybe I would evolve but it still would be tough… I realized I need to be super low-carb (at least not counting animal ones), it’s a fact of my body. So I am not sure about my case. But for many others, high-carb may work well if they avoid the usual mistakes the average person does.
People get sick not because they eat high-carb, quite probably. They overeat, they eat too much sugar, processed low-quality food and so on, stress, inactivity… A better high-carb diet would do good to most high-carbers. I mean, they would be healthier, I don’t say that would be the optimal for most, I actually don’t know that but it seems low-carb is better for very many people. I think it would be great if most people would be willing to try it, maybe they would find something great as so many of us here did… One eating HC usually don’t feel the pull towards LC. I needed some trigger, thinking, researching and experimenting but when I showed LC to my body, something clicked and everything got better (it was the mere low-carb, going way lower had its hardships but I still felt the approval of my body - when I was ready, at least, I couldn’t go super low right away, I felt awful then). It was super quick, I just had to TRY and I saw! Many people must be like me regarding this. And many others who would need more time but the end result would be similar…
But people don’t try, some don’t care but some believe they do the best (or close) for them and they are so far from that so often… I always was somewhat health-conscious but I only saw one basic woe as example… I mostly just followed my urges and they wanted me to eat lots of fatty protein and lots of nutrients and that’s cool but regarding carbs, I was totally off and had no idea it is a thing to change it drastically, for the better. The average person wonders about their diet and cares about their health less than me, maybe they never will try something that is in the right direction… And that’s just tragic.
