Keto or Carnivore?

#1

I am curious as to what led you to go from Keto to Carnivore.

#2

Carnivore threads on this forum. It was surreal :slight_smile: The folks were just too charming, I got curious and somehow I lost interest in almost all vegetables. (Since then my interest is non-existent most of the time. And I was a HUGE veggie lover, the low amount of vegs was my only real hardship on keto.)

Surely there were more as the above sounds somewhat silly and I have hunches about where to go and lower-carb seemed the right idea anyway but I donā€™t remember more. It just happened.

And then I tried it out and I got BENEFITS! While keto didnā€™t give me any apart from fat adaptation. Itā€™s so much better and easier so my default woe is carnivore-ish now. I go off all the time just like on keto, I donā€™t really have control over these things (I do try but things go slowly) but I feel I am not too far from being quite pleased with what I have.

It definitely was a jump into the right direction.
But I have a strong theory that I just need a very low net carbs from non-animal sources most of the time. But I am sure itā€™s useful to go stricter and anyway, I am curious. So since some years I try to get closer and make my carni times longer. I need some more time but there were improvements.

My carni food is definitely tastier than my vegetarian keto food and that was tastier than my low-carb one and that was tastier than my high-carb one and my high-carb food was super deliciousā€¦ My hedonist self really canā€™t complain about the food. Except when I donā€™t have appetite, good taste alone isnā€™t everythingā€¦ But it doesnā€™t happen too often so itā€™s fine.

Adding carbs makes things both harder and worse for me most of the time. Normal keto is problematic, I canā€™t go back except on some exceptional days where my food is almost completely carnivore with a tiny extra non-carni food on top. I could plan a keto day but I would stray further. Plant carbs mess with me. A tiny is fine but moreā€¦ Doesnā€™t work well.

It was just continued evolution I suppose. High-carb -> low-carb (<80g net carbs) -> keto (<40-45g net carbs) -> carnivore(-ish). I had to lose most of the non-animal carbs as they just interfered too much. But it took more than a decade.

#3

just a natural walk here and while getting healthier and healthier on low carb to ā€˜extreme ultimateā€™ low carb where I found my health to be best and off ā€˜dieting BS crap involved in other plansā€™ and it suited my body I found I walked this way just as I changed and found more ā€˜meā€™ in what workedā€¦THEN I hit ZIOH. Zeroing In On Health. ZC lifestyle. Who knew there was one? I didnā€™t as I walked down off carbs and when I found ZIOH, I found my life literally and future path. So that is what was for me. Never looked back with heading into year 6, and back in the day, there was no ā€˜carnivoreā€™ out and about like it is now but forces thru nature made me hit ZIOH and I learned all about it. Best click on the net I ever made LOL

(Scott) #4

I tried it for 30 daysā€¦three years ago.

#5

I honestly donā€™t know. It began, I think, with simplicity, and the love of these particular foods. I started early on in keto actually losing my interest for carbs, plants and vegetables. And I discovered my tastebuds suddenly were stronger, I was enjoying my food so much more and looking forward to my meals, but still finding myself a lot less hungry and finding satiety easily. My hunger is never sharp anymore, and I follow this simple way: I eat when Iā€™m hungry and stop when Iā€™m full. My body is loving the foods but my ā€˜carnivoreā€™ WOE is quite relaxed, as I also eat eggs, cream (and lots of it) cheese, and butter, as well as drink coffee, green tea and chamomile. Itā€™s very individual. And I donā€™t call it carnivore. My mom is freaking out because Iā€™m on this WOE so Iā€™m currently trying to find a different name for it and description that wonā€™t have my mom so stressed, lol. Ketovore is perhaps a better name for this relaxed version of ā€˜carnivoreā€™.

#6

Call it ā€˜Never2lateā€™s Dietā€™ that works for me and me alone and everyone just watch me shine :slight_smile: :slight_smile: When someone asks what ya eating, say you are doing it for ā€˜your specific metabolismā€™ to better health. I eat what I needā€¦leave them hanging on descriptions BUT problem is when ya change SO much down the line and you got life vibrancy back, and they see you truly shine thru this better health ya gained, then be ready with ā€˜linksā€™ to read. Tell then read all the carnivore/zero carbs links and get back to you AFTER they learn how to communicate in this lifestyle :slight_smile: you got this and we got ya as back up!!

#7

Dr. Paul Saladino, Now recommending fresh fruit, raw honey and raw milk. Any thoughts?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

This is so different from how it is on a high-carb diet. I would eat until I was stuffed, but never really stopped being hungry. Then, all to soon, Iā€™d be starving and have to eat, or Iā€™d get the shakes. These days, I eat, then I know Iā€™m done, and I donā€™t want more food for quite some time. It was a revelation when I first experienced satiation. I had been eating keto for about three weeks at that point, I believe.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

Not for most carnivores, but if itā€™s what he needs, why not? Anthony Chaffee has some interesting speculation about what might have led Dr. Saladino to need those foods. I believe the video is posted in one of the carnivore threads; a forum search should turn it up.

Iā€™m not carnivore, just keto, and I do occasionally eat fresh fruit, but Iā€™d never touch honey. Itā€™s almost all carbohydrate, and it tastes disgustingly sweet. Also, Iā€™d be very afraid of reawakening my sugar addiction. Iā€™m having enough trouble resisting bread and grains these days; going back to glazed doughnuts would be a major disaster.

As for raw milk, Iā€™m accustomed to pasteurised, but Iā€™m okay either way. In this part of the country, however, raw is just too expensive to fit into the budget in a regular basis.

#10

I too am only Keto and low carb. However, I will eat bread only on Sunday mornings. 2 slices of my wifeā€™s fresh homemade sour-dough rye bread, smothered in grass-fed butter with 3 free range poached eggs on top. After eating Keto/LCH way for the better part of 10+ years I believe/hope I have some metabolic flexibility now. Raw milk is not allowed to be sold where I live. A doctor friend while visiting a farm convinced the farmer to provide him some raw milk and was so sick afterwards he had to be hospitalized.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

Thatā€™s a shame. I hope the farmer tracked down the fault in his procedures. I can well remember my aunt, a nurse, making sure the milk pails were properly disinfected before allowing my uncle to take them out to the barn to do the milking.

#12

Pretty stupid and wrong to just recommend it in generalā€¦ Of course, he may eat however he wants and can :slight_smile:
Nice diet, by the way, I mean, full with super tasty stuff but not everyone handles sugar the same. Carnivores are probably carnivores because they donā€™t handle it so well. I handle them fine very occasionally and I love fruits and honey and raw milk - well milk is carnivore as itā€™s animal product but I understand avoiding or limiting it along with the other sugary dairy, itā€™s the best for some - but I would never think eating sugary stuff is good for me. because it isnā€™t. I can tolerate a little perfectly fine, lucky me but thatā€™s it. And they definitely not needed so recommending them is very strange to me.

Raw milk is the cheapest, by far, here. Except UHT milk with its price cap but that tastes bad. (Though I actually donā€™t know if I still feel so. All cream is UHT here so maybe I got used to itā€¦? But I still feel the UHT flavor, some brands are worse than others, I wouldnā€™t want it in milk I like to drink all alone.)

Wow, that happens to people? Scary.
I was very satiated on high-carb. And could fast way easierā€¦ But there were too many problems so I will somehow make carnivore OMAD happen :slight_smile: I have enough experiences, letā€™s see if I manage to eat big enough meals even longer term. I donā€™t like eating every hour and that happens if I get too easy satiation AND donā€™t have the right food to fight against it. Proper supplies are very important for me now.

Itā€™s bread, butter and some crunchy raw veg (usually radish) for meā€¦ And my own bread as the wheat bread I bake for my SO is too floury and not eggy enoughā€¦ Our taste in bread changed a lot during the last decade but especially mine. And thatā€™s good as carbs in big amounts probably never will be great for me. And itā€™s quite fine, I can tolerate high-carb days occasionally, my body is indulgent enough and it makes sense it wants very low-carb as its best for it.

I donā€™t do 2 slices. I eat severalā€¦ Even if itā€™s protein rich. Eating a lot of food first probably helps a bit thoughā€¦

#13

Dr. Saladino, explains how itā€™s not alpha predators chasing us anymore, itā€™s chemicals that have infiltrated the food supply that is attacking us. This is how Dr. Saladino went from super strict carnivore to now allowing fruit into his diet. About 2 years ago he posted on his Twitter account, ā€œEating meat, organs, fruit, honey sends a clear signal of abundance to your body. If you want healthy libido, body composition, sleep, mental clarity, and fertility you probably want to send your body signals of abundance.ā€ I suspect he discovered a deficiency in himself that led to him changing his tune and now recommends ā€œCarnivores NEED to start eating fruit.ā€ Does anybody know what the deficiencies were?

#14

No way my body needs fruit, itā€™s mostly sugar nowadaysā€¦ While meat has everything we might need from out food as much as I knowā€¦
Itā€™s just the base thing, people arenā€™t that simple and I totally can imagine he needs something so itā€™s better for him to eat a bunch of sugar with little other things in it (but those may be super important for him, they do have something. but compared to all the sugarā€¦ hardly a good deal for most of us)ā€¦

Introducing a bunch of dense sugar to my body, nope, that is not something mine likes :slight_smile: I would add zillion other carby things first. I do eat fruit but only because I canā€™t avoid it, itā€™s so super delicious, sometimes it tops even pork and that is something.
But itā€™s winter now and I am glad I donā€™t have fruits in my garden until June. Fruit is natureā€™s candy, not proper food for me.

The very first item I would add would be gluten, by the way. WAY more useful than some compact sugar. Bad for the majority of people but I donā€™t seem to be one of them.
And I donā€™t want to add it at all. So I hope I can stick to proper carnivore and get what I want this timeā€¦

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

No, and in any case, they might be idiopathic and not a general problem. However, if you need permission to start eating fruit and honey on your carnivore diet, I grant it freely.

#16

It is quite possible it was idiopathic, to begin with. However, he now preaches that carnivores must eat fruit.

#17

Human carnivores CANā€™T eat fruit though as itā€™s not carnivore. If I eat fruit, I immediately go off carniā€¦ (Except I allow a few drops of lemon juice as flavoring, personally.)

Itā€™s like a vegetarian canā€™t eat meatā€¦

(Bob M) #18

With all due respect, his deficiencies are mental. Seriously, that guy has some issues. You MUST eat raw liver! You MUST eat raw egg yolks, but MUST NOT eat the egg whites. If covid is on a ship, every surface of the ship will be covered with covid.

These are things I heard him say. I stopped listening to anything he said after these.

#19

HAHA. When anyone says you MUST eat this or that, I called BS. With any eating protocol, I try and measure everything I can measure. The numbers donā€™t lie. I want empirical data. This would include a DEXA scan and complete blood work including ApoB and Apo A-1c. In the beginning, I did this before I started so I could have a baseline. Again at the 3-month interval. I continue to do blood work and a DEXA scan once a year. Having this data allows me to self-correct if necessary and potentially reduce any risk factors that may have shown up.

#20

Hi ffskier. After having to reinstate a few vegetables because I discovered the carnivore WOE wasnā€™t working for me (severely decreased energy and constipation), I am seeing things in a different light. I have begun to eat far more intuitively. And I am looking more into how my ancestors would have eaten. Yes, mainly meat, fowl and fish, but they would also have grown vegetables and eaten seasonal fruits and berries. Amber O Hearn shares a passage, of William Bantingā€™s lowcarb WOE in 1864 (described in his own words) and it shows he mainly ate meat, fowl fish, but also vegetables and fruits, but in small quantities. As well as a piece of toast or a rusk. And that to me seems a balanced diet. It is when we try to optimise diets, aka, eat the rainbow variety of vegetables and fruits, but donā€™t consider just how different all supermarked fruit is from homegrown, there is a problem.

I still remember biting into our own homegrown apples and pears when I grew up, in my own country Norway, as my mom and my grandparents grew fruit trees, as well as vegetables in their gardens. The apples my mom grew were pleasantly sour, the pears not too sweet. She also grew strawberries, rhubarb, blackberries, black currants, red currants, gooseberries, etc, and in the summer we harvested wild blueberries together with my brothers in our mountains. My greatest joy was when we all went out into the fjords and bought cherries from the local farmers. There was also a local farm shop that sold butter, eggs and cheese, and although we didnā€™t go there that often, as the food in that shop was more expensive than in the supermarked, my grandparents on my fatherā€™s side, would buy their eggs, cheese and butter from there. Whenever my brother and I went to stay at their house, we were treated to good saturated fats, and berries in the garden. My grandparents on my motherā€™s side were much less fond of fat, but their garden was indeed full of berries and fruits.

When all people have left is the supermarked, where they can buy seasonal fruit year round, it becomes a problem. It is consumed in too large quantities, in altered forms (perhaps larger than they would have been, and certainly much, much sweeter). As to honey, unless people were buying raw from a local beekeeper or kept bees themselves, the honey you get in the supermarked is just sugar. Now raw milk interests me. I have long been toying with the idea of buying some from a local farm that sells it in our village, as ordinary homogenised milk, makes me ill. I believe it isnā€™t that raw milk is some kind of superfood as some people claim, but that milk in itself is highly nutritious when itā€™s assimilated well, and perhaps the body can assimilate raw milk products better.

I think one of the problems with Dr. Paul Saladinoā€™s advice though is that he doesnā€™t consider that while he can afford to source the best of fruit from local farms, raw milk, free range eggs, organic and grassfed meats, raw honey from some local (or his own) beehive, a lot of people just donā€™t have those resources. The second problem about his advice is that Dr. Paul Saladino is a very active man, as in incredibly athletic, a surfer, not to mention he does some body building as well, so his body obviously requires a lot more carbs than the average couch potato. The third problem with his advice is that he doesnā€™t stress enough the part about being metabolically healthy (as I believe his focus there was on the metabolically healthy) when following this particular advice, and what might work very well for an active healthy person such as himself might not work as well for a recovering diabetic, or for that matter, a recovering couch potato-ish carb addict. Now I feel very lucky in that Iā€™ve never been addicted to carbs, never been that much into food, I like how it tastes of course, but I can eat one single strawberry (which I find too sweet these days) and leave it at that. Or say, half of an avocado, or a small handful of berries. So although Iā€™m sure Dr. Paul Saladinoā€™s advice will benefit some, it wonā€™t benefit everyone. But thatā€™s the thing about any WOE, itā€™s highly individual the way it works, depending on so many different factors.