My dear wife and I have been pretty much keto for the past 5 or 6 years, I kinda forget exactly. Time slips away. We’ve both had good things happen. Both of us lost weight. Both of us have become more active, and I had thought healthier.
I’m concerned about my wife, though (she’s 71). She went for a “wellness check” a few weeks ago and they were happy with her BP, her cholesterol, her a1c, all of that was fine. But she had an elevated WBC, not just a little, and she wasn’t sick. She also had a bone scan… -3.2. YIKES!!
The bone scan was a surprise. We definitely are eating our protein and calcium should be adequate as we do full fat dairy and cheese. Have heard Dr. Berry talk about how bone is a large percentage protein. We’ve got to be missing something.
Her doctor wants her to take Fosamax, I can understand why. I’ve been looking into things like collagen, magnesium, D3+K2, Omega 3’s, I’m not sure quite what else to look at.
Obviously something in the diet is not getting translated.
FWIW, the high WBC count started near 50k, was down to 44k yesterday on retest, still high. They’re doing more testing but hinting that CLL might be a possibility.
Kinda felt broadsided by all of this. Figured maybe someone might have ideas I should look at / look into to learn a bit more about what may be going on. If I understood, maybe I could lean the diet in the right direction to at least help a little. (?)
Everyone’s situation is different, so I hesitate to offer too much guidance based on our own experiences here. I’ll try to tread carefully…
My wife (mid-60s) recently got her first bone scan, too. It knocked us out of our chairs, too. Comparable to the t-scores you cited.
Well, for roughly 5 yrs she joined me in keto, lost a lot of weight. As a result, our doc took her off statins and high blood pressure meds. Rx free!
We have since supplemented daily with K2, D3, lots of dietary protein, bovine collagen in coffee, etc., etc.
[Side note: we do NOT supplement calcium - more than enough in her diet - and serum calcium levels are high enough as a result. It’s getting that calcium into the bones that’s the issue. Too much calcium circulating that’s not being absorbed is more likely to build up in arteries. Again, no supplementation there. The D3 + K2 are to promote calcium uptake where it belongs.]
But here’s the essential point: My wife has been largely sedentary for much of her adult life. In other words, her bones have not been challenged in the least.
There’s much I’ve learned about BMD, especially how it dissipates with age under even the best of conditions. And under less than best? Well, it’s not surprising she got results like this as seen on her (first) dexa.
Objective: To arrest further bone mineral density loss. Here’s what we’ve been doing …
1-2x daily weight-bearing and targeted impact exercise.
Check out the many on-line sources, in particular Dr Lisa Moore’s “brickhouse bones” series or Margaret Martin. Plenty of free common-sense info for safe exercises for osteoporosis patients.
Might also want to explore the vibration plates - but please be wary as some are pure junk and generate the wrong kind of motions. Happy to discuss further if interested.
And yes, our family internist’s initial reaction was Fosamax. We remain highly resistant to the idea. This is based on class action lawsuits and countless complaints of serious adverse reactions. So he referred us to an endocrinologist.
The endocrinologist also ran a bunch of tests and said: Although he thought some kind of medication (many choices) would be “standard of care” protocol, he agreed that even with my wife’s significantly negative t-score (both hip and spine), since we only had this single test we had no trajectory of data to see how quickly things have been unfolding. Especially since she had been mostly inactive (“unathletic”) for decades, it made sense to spend a year or two with a serious bone-oriented exercise regime and then retest with another scan after that. Then we could make a better determination as to whether Rx medication was absolutely necessary. (Of course, she can still refuse even then if that’s her choice.)
I’m sorry you’re going through this too. Lots to wrap your mind around and it’s a tough issue to become somewhat more comfortable with. There’s a learning curve, but such a common issue for women as they age - men to a lesser extent - that there are many useful science-based resources out there to digest. Like with keto, you have to do some meaningful research to find it.
Given that you both have been successful with keto for 5+ years speaks volumes. It tells me that you are willing to keep an open mind (vis-a-vis the conventional medical advice out there) and are wise enough to know what’s useful science-based info vs what’s marketing bunk.
Personally, our own inclination is to put Big Pharma-produced solutions as far out of reach as we possibly can.
Exercise - lots of it - and only the right kind (impact + weight-bearing are key) have been proven to make a difference in stalling against further bone mineral density loss and bone quality (another topic) deterioration.
Reversing it? Maybe. Although that could also just be measurement error. But arresting further damage is likely possible with effort and focus.
Hope some of this helps. Unfortunately, you’re in good company.
Hey Joey, thank you for your reply! I appreciate you typing that all out, it must have taken a while.
It sounds like we’re of quite a similar mindset and perhaps similar circumstances. My wife has also been largely sedentary in the jobs she’s had, generally sitting behind a desk. She’s been somewhat active around our little homestead but it’s getting harder for her to exert the levels of energy that I typically do, understandably. I’m slingin’ around 5 gal buckets of water and compost, diggin’ in the dirt, plantin’, pickin’, always somethin’, and I think of that as a good thing. She wants to keep up, I know, but she gets tired.
I have heard that calcium supplements are not such a good thing, especially knowing that we get a good bit in our diet. I have wondered whether a small dose would be appropriate on days when we don’t get much in the diet but also don’t know how quickly levels change for that. Might not be that quickly and it just averages out. Overall, I think we have plenty and like you mention, I do NOT want it going to the wrong places… D3 and K2 are definitely on our radar.
As for the vibration plates, absolutely would be interested in your thoughts! Sounds like you’ve looked into them. Something like that, I think I could get my wife to do. Pumpin’ weights, I have my doubts. (I could be wrong.)
Yeah, I don’t like the Fosamax idea. And I know it doesn’t actually fix things, it’s more of a “patch”, maybe questionable. But I suspect my wife is gonna try it and see if she can tolerate it. Really would like to build / rebuild healthy bone rather than just keep it from sloughing off the old stuff. Have wondered if both could happen at the same time.
Anyway, there could be other factors, including hormones that are rather nebulous to me that might be working on this as well. Seems like it’s all connected.
Thanks again for the thoughts! And best wishes to you and yours as well! This gettin’ old ain’t much fun. And the fountain of middle age seems to have eluded us.
I didn’t know the acronym. High white cell count without inflammation or infection is a concern. Are they lymphocytes? Plus bone changes. You really want to rule out the cancer diagnosis. This may not have anything to do with dietary deficiency.
I wish you both the best for a good result in that investigation.
Thanks, FrankoBear and Bean. It’s in process. Saw the hemotologist / oncologist on Monday, waiting for results of tests and followup.
Seems that CLL is more common than I had thought. That particular Dr’s group (in a small town, I might add) mentioned having over 100 CLL patients. They didn’t seem to concerned if that was the case as it doesn’t tend to progress all that rapidly, they have more of a mindset of “keep an eye on it”.
But yeah, there is other stuff they wanna test for, rule out, etc, including cancer.
I had asked the Doc if they thought Cushings could be something to look for and initially they said probably not in this case. But they’re looking / testing and we’re hangin’ in there.
So far, she hasn’t really had any serious symptoms of any kind and says that other than being a little tired doesn’t have any pain or discomfort that she attributes to anything other than “getting old”. We both have our “battle scars” that talk to us when the weather changes and heaven knows the weather has been crazy this year. Even the zucchini refuses to grow, which is a new one around here.
Anyway, thank you for your replies! I appreciate them. I’ll try to update if we learn anything more just so I don’t let you all hanging. Might be a bit, we’ll see. If it’s really bad, they’ll probably be in touch early. If nothing much, we’ll probably not hear until next appointment in about 2 weeks.
Oh, FrancoBear, you did ask about whether lymphocytes were high, they were (are). But I don’t remember all of the breakdown as there are quite a few different kinds of WBC’s that can point in different directions.
I have heard good things about the Dr’s group she’s going to. Another friend, the wife of a music buddy that passed away in February, that happens to have CLL (diagnosed 13 years ago, actually doing quite well, you wouldn’t know it to see her) goes to one of the Dr’s in that group and speaks highly of them.
It’s hard waiting. We did decide to go ahead and add some D3 and K2 along with some magnesium, mostly for other pesky things but with a little more purpose at this point. We asked the Doc about that and they were fine with it.
But for some more internet-based advice, apparently a low-grade inflammation over a long period of time can lead to both osteoporosis and an elevated white blood count.
This simply from my brain, not internet suggested, but how is her crp? (Uh, c-reactive protein, not ).
Based on what you’ve shared, concerns over your wife’s recent test results will no doubt weigh heavily as you await closure. As such, you may not have the energy or focus to explore LiV platforms (“low intensity vibration”) at the moment.
OTOH, doing so may provide a welcomed distraction? If so, there’s a good bit of relevant info here: https://www.vibrationcare.com.
Some links to relevant (albeit scant) research can be found here: https://www.vibrationcare.com/vibration-therapy-scientific-research.html … but as always, google scholar is your web search friend. Spoiler: There isn’t much, but on balance the research points toward proper LiV use being of some benefit and - unless using the wrong kinds of plates - of no harm.
To be clear: the above site owner Jay Tang has a vested interest in his own vibration plate product. But I have found him to be a credible and highly ethical seller (I’ve personally had excellent interactions with him).
Hope some of this might be of interest at the right time.
How are her blood calcium levels? I mentioned this in another thread, but if she has an overactive parathyroid gland, it causes blood calcium levels to be high. This because calcium is being leached from the bones. Fatigue, muscle weakness, and bone and joint pain can be symptoms. Over time it can cause osteoporosis.
If medical problems are ruled out, I would definitely recommend weight bearing exercise. That helps move calcium into bone. Strength training will also make her more resilient over time and less likely to have falls. It is never too late to start building muscle.
KM, thanks for the reply. The docs so far have looked at the numbers and the types of wbc’s and thought that infection / inflammation was not a good fit for the numbers they are seeing. But they are continuing to dig. We’ll see.
I am pretty sure she’s had a crp number somewhere but I don’t think the first doc thought it was anything of concern and he didn’t offer to give my wife a copy. I haven’t seen the number so don’t know what it is. I may find out at a later time.
I’m definitely cautious with internet-based knowledge and don’t tend to take anything online as “medical advice”. But it seems to be helpful in maybe asking some more pertinent questions when we are interacting with the Dr’s.
I’ve got plenty of distractions so not an issue there. LOL!! 50 things to do, time to look at 2 or 3 today. But I did wanna check here before I get busy.
Thanks, Edith! I don’t have a number for calcium, I hope to learn that at some point in the near future.
The present Dr’s are more focused on hematology and oncology. When I asked about whether there could be things going on in the glandular regions (I forget the exact wording), they were quick to point out that that’s a different specialist, an endocrinologist. LOL!! So there might be several stops along this road, not sure yet.
It does appear that weight bearing exercises may be called for. I suspect they’re going to need to be targeted and pointed if she is going to get serious about doing them. I have a feeling it will come up at at least one of the Dr’s appointments.
Calcium (blood level in mg/dl) is a standard measure provided in most any comprehensive metabolic panel (CMP) - which most physicians order annually as a basic part of a wellness visit.
Given the various other tests your wife has had lately, it’d be surprising if a “CMP” wasn’t done prior to many of the others you’ve shared.
Perhaps have a quick look at recent bloodwork reports?
The lab “reference range” is typically somewhere between 8-10 md/dl, but each lab may offer different ranges based on their own methods and reporting protocols.
Two possibilities there. One is not enough protein, most people don’t recommend enough. The RDA’s certainly don’t. The “normal” 1g/lb is for normal people to maintain, and people doing resistance training that want the wiggle room to grow. Add in age, which means anabolic resistance, and it should be even higher. Even then, without resistance training, muscle wastes away, and then bone mass.
The amounts recomended are just stupid. The 0.8g per kg is laughable! Most would lose muscle they already have at that amount. If you ever pay attention to the people that will actually say that with a straight face, they’re usually under muscled.
My mother is 70, I’ve recently got her (finally) in the gym and lifting, all cable machines but she’s getting stronger and feeling better. It’s really not optional for anybody that wants to thrive. I put her onto Dr Gabbie Lyon and her muscle centric medicine mindset. You’re probably aware of her being a Keto’r, but if not, she’s a Doc that started off on her career in geriatrics and watching people waste away every day and all the hell that caused.
Hopefully the CLL is just a bad idea from the doc. Being older look into things like Senolytics to keep the zomie cells dying as planned, things like NAD precursors and other proven longevity supplements.
On the non mainstream stuff depending on what type of docs you guys are willing to work with, assuming CLL is ruled out, people like to forget that Anabolics aren’t just for meatheads, they were literally made for recovery, muscle and bone density issues etc. It’s still their medical purpose today, and they’re very effective at their job.
Anavar is a very mild anabolic that’s still used commonly with burn victims because it sends collagen production off the charts when skin is too damaged to regenerate itself. It’s pretty popular with Women because of how mild the androgenic side of it is, but very effective nontheless. Anadrol which isn’t considered a weak one is very popular for men building mass (totally different dosing there) but was designed to fight anemia and muscle/bone wasting in senior citizens. Again, they’ve very effective at their job with decades of medical use behind them. Just stuff to consider. Both of those are just a pill to pop.
Anti-Aging clinics, Sports medicine docs, and cash pay Optimzation clinics are the ones that still regualry prescibe those. Mainstream docs will push whatever the big pharma overlords tell them too. That said, I"m not anti-pharma at all, they’ve made a ton of very effective things that have extended human life, the evil part is how it’s all carried out, which is about 50% them, 50% what the gov’t does to them, we us normies at the bottom all literally pay the price for.
I don’t know if I mentioned it earlier… we’ve also begun a collagen supplement. I know some doctors kinda poo poo that. One of her symptoms that I also didn’t mention earlier was “thin skin”. Her hands and forearms often look like someone who’s taking a blood thinner but she is not on any meds.
Thanks for sharing about your mom lifting. For us, it would be some kind of weights or machines here at home, no gym handy. (We live quite rural.) But those are very possible. I have some free weights but no machines.
We’ll see where the Doc’s go with their findings. Could be serious, could be next to nothing, don’t know yet.
Ya, people are all over the place with Collagen, I’d say it’s pointless if you’re not at optimal protein levels already, but once you’re there, I’m for it. I’ve 100% noticed a difference in my joints with it, and a few weeks after I stop, I get more crunchy/crackly.
Check out Bodylastics, great quality bands, and you can do a LOT with bands. I have their bands, curl bar, and door anchor, and during COVID although I had actual lifting stuff here, I did a lot of band work.
He does use some equipment (he likes rings for instance). He has a lot of videos of progressions, so going from doing a pushup on the wall, to stairs, to the floor, etc. Those are helpful.
I’ve been wanting to look at whether collagen might be helpful for a while, this just kicked me in the butt to actually do it. Probably wouldn’t be a bad thing for me, either. (Broke a leg badly in 2015, limped for years, I think the other leg has taken a lot of abuse. But that’s another story…) I don’t remember the brand but found collagen peptides with something like 6 different kinds of collagen. I hadn’t realized there were so many. Anyway, got unflavored and figure we’ll stick a scoop in the morning coffee. Tried it this morning, couldn’t even tell it was there. So at least it’s relatively painless.
Yeah, heard an internet doc a couple of days ago say it was a waste, just eat meat. But there seem to be an awful lot of people who have stories like yours, that seem to find a benefit. I probably don’t tend to eat stuff like gristle or cartilage, and we don’t use a whole lot of bone broth. So, maybe? It wasn’t a whole lot of money invested but we just wanna see.
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