Karim's muscle gain carnivore adventure


(Karim Wassef) #261

And I think it worked -

Before eating 78G, 0.7K = 6.2GKI
After eating 86G, 0.6K = 8.0GKI
End of the night 80G, 1.1K = 4.0GKI

We’ll see what tomorrow morning will bring but it’s encouraging to be back in the 3-6GKI range after living in the 12+ state last week.

Mostly, I’m hoping to avoid the 90-100+ glucose readings & controlling my protein seems to get me there.

I actually will have to correct some of my older data since I hadn’t accounted for carbs in my heavy cream … but it’s not a substantial change.

Thankfully, making clotted cream removes a lot of the carbs… well, it concentrates the fat so the carbs are less by weight.

But now I have a milky whey that is higher in carbs than normal heavy cream… what to do with it?? It’s still higher in fat than whole milk. Might have to feed it to the kiddos… :joy: or make kefir


(Karim Wassef) #262

Day 11

Down 2.2lbs overnight - definitely water loss with reduced insulin. Ketones at 1.3 and morning glucose of 80 = 3.4GKI… This is my normal keto state.

Stress is the same. Sleep is the same. Carbs were the same (if not a little higher) last night. The only difference is my protein intake is down from 160g (& much higher) to a strict 100g. I wasn’t hungry - the clotted cream made sure of that!

This reinforces my view that excess protein will not just be lost. It will be de-aminated to remove the nitrogen and the remaining molecules will be converted to glucose. If the insulin spike stays longer, that glucose will be stored as fat. This is not gluconeogenesis (GNG) due to low glucose (which demand driven). This is GNG due to excess supply that must be captured by the body.

So - all else the same - 160g protein spikes my blood glucose and 100g does not… this is on a weekday with weightlifting and sauna.

If I look at this from the glucagon-prime perspective, the energy intake macros served the need without requiring much glucagon to boost glucose. There’s an abundance of dietary fat too and that metabolism should make sufficient glucose. So neither glucagon nor insulin are needed in abundance to manage the energy balance.


(Karim Wassef) #263

Also - no comments on my beautiful clotted cream? This stuff is delicious and at 28g (~two tablespoons) has 15g of fat to 1g of carbs… it’s like super cream!

I had 5 tablespoons…


(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #264

The term “Clotted Cream” really makes me think of the gook that they show coming out of arterial walls as they squeeze it like a piping bag, on one of those “Don’t smoke because this will happen” commercials. I can’t get past that.

I will, however, restate my love for your counter tops. <3


(Karim Wassef) #265

I know. I think that’s the only reason this stuff didn’t catch on - awful name.

Maybe it should be called …

Dense cream
Baked cream
Fudge cream
The real cream’s cream

?


(Karim Wassef) #266

On the protein to glucose / ketone effects …

I kept everything the same except that when I dropped the protein, I got satiated faster so my fat didn’t quite close the caloric gap.

The two states are identical except that the high glucose comes at 160g protein and 3100+ calories, and the low glucose state comes at 100g protein and 2300 calories with a large deficit in fat (560 cal) as well as the deficit in protein (240 cal).

It would be good to have data where the caloric content is constant, just shifted from protein to fat - that seems like a worthwhile experiment.

I’m not going to do it today but that’s one for future validation.


(Karim Wassef) #267

also… as another experiment… I’d like to slowly walk my protein up from 100g to 160g (maybe 10g increments) to see where I hit my “excess” point to trigger GNG from dietary protein…

again… probably another day. :smiley:

so many experiments - so little time - so few bodies… moohahaha :crazy_face:


(Karim Wassef) #268

Here’s the plan for today

It’s light but that’s because the steak is already a lot of the protein needs. I increased my clotted cream intake to 6 tablespoons but had to cut back on the liver and bone broth and no cod liver or bacon today :frowning:

I’m finding it surprisingly difficult to stay at 100g of protein without making cuts, so it’s 110g today… and tempted to walk up to 120g… but I’ll wait one more day (as Paul puts it… tomorrow, I can have all the protein I want… LOL)

With all the muscle tearing, I didn’t want to completely cut out the eggs (cholestrol), the liver (nutrients), or the bone broth (collagen).

I personally find that the bone broth seems to help with my injured shoulder and bicep tendon pain. Not sure if it’s fixing anything, but it feels better.

Also - I corrected my macros on beef bone broth, so yesterday was actually closer to 90g of protein

so today will just about offset that.


(Mario) #269

if you want to gain muscle, you will anyway need a bit more protein. if you stay around 100gr, you will just lean out, but not able to gain lean mass.

i went through that, believe me


Fasting -Formerly Easy- is More Difficult Lately; Ideas?
(Karim Wassef) #270

I agree. I need to find the balance between not enough to gain and too much that gets turned to glucose.

100g looks safe since it’s 0.7g / lb of lean mass at 140lb of lean

160g looks to be too much based on my glucose spikes and ketone crash

maybe if my target is 20lb of muscle gain, I should target 0.7 x (140+20) = 112g of protein… that’s pretty much where I’m headed today with one small steak, 2 eggs, some liver, a cup of bone broth and my Leucine/Carnitine supplements.


(Neil) #271

I’ll be curious to see what you find about protein intake. I feel like I’ve been able to plow through as much protein as I want without causing any issues, but looking back, I think I was still only getting around 100 g. Fascinating stuff!

The part about needing to restrict protein on Keto seems to be highly controversial. The last thing I read on it that sticks out in my mind was this:


(Karim Wassef) #272

I’m sure it’s controversial, complicated, nuanced and individual…

my data points to GNG with excess protein… also, my excess is REALLY EXCESS! Did you see my sashimi plate? Have you oggled my 28oz T-bone?

most people’s version of high protein isn’t in the 250-350g ranges…

Also - it’s body dependent… my lean mass is only 140g. If your lean mass is 200g… that’s a whole different story.


(I'll trade you my bacon for your cheese) #273

I would legit hurl. I can’t eat that much meat in a sitting. It makes me swimmy-headed just thinking about it. :hot_face:


(Karim Wassef) #274

I got my 12yo eating like that… she asks for it rare too.

I’m so proud of my little carnivore cub.

The good news is that she just gets taller as long as she keeps carbs under control. No protein issues for her… but insulin and mToR are totally different for that age group.


(Karim Wassef) #275

Before lifting 89G, 0.9K = 5.5GKI
After lifting 79G, 0.8K = 5.5GKI

Now that’s interesting equilibrium… looks like I’m using equal parts glucose and ketones?


(Karim Wassef) #276

Considering a new balance… 110g of protein, 110g of fat and 5g carbs.

Why?

110g protein x 4 cal + 110g fat x 9 + 5g carb x 4 + 34 cal / lb of body fat x 40 lbs = 2810 cal which is around my “lightly active” metabolic rate.

If this is right, then I should

  1. Not be hungry (110g fat)
  2. Maximize internal fat loss (40lb max drain)
  3. Have enough protein for muscle building (110g)
  4. Maintain low insulin with low glucose without GNG (5g carbs, 110g protein)
  5. Maintain metabolic rate (2800cal available)

Clearly- this is just the set point for today and I’d have to work out the formula over time since it would change daily.

It is based on a hypothesis that the nonlinear response of metabolic rate to diet is based on a rate limiting availability of body fat (34cal / body fat lb) and that it’s dropping below that threshold that triggers the body to lower the metabolic rate to compensate or risk excessive GNG to make it up.

It’s a hypothesis… I know it’s controversial and I’m not advocating it for anyone but it is an interesting experiment given my fasting feasting results.

Thoughts? @Don_Q @primal.peanut @PaulL @atomicspacebunny @cervyn @Ilana_Rose @Dread1840 @Freischuetz @MooBoom @OldDoug and everyone else who’s got an interest in my self studies :smile:


(Bunny) #277

One thing I found that was interesting is that cortisol increases GNG!

Trying to lower GNG may not be a good idea, but I doubt you could stop it or inhibit in any way, being that the turn over rate of dietary protein is already a slow process, “excessiveness” may not even be an issue? Not only that; your body may take (catabolic) your own protein (the bark) from your liver and other parts (skin tissue) and make GNG out of it as Phinney and Volek point out; most of the protein used by the body does not come from eating it, it comes from your own body parts? Which makes sense, as lipids inside fat cells (fuel cells) can be used to make ketones?


(Karim Wassef) #278

It’s a cycle. As old lean mass is catabolized, the nitrogen is sequestered and removed in urine… new amino acids are needed to replenish and that comes from dietary protein.

Without dietary protein, the body’s demand drives GNG to maintain the desired blood glucose (which is influenced by stress and cortisol). However, excess protein also gets converted through deamination into glucose building blocks. One is demand driven, the other is supply driven.

I can see the effect in my own blood glucose & ketones data as a function of excess dietary protein.

What is excess? Somewhere between 100g and 160g for my body.


(Bunny) #279

Yes, but when that runs out then what?


(Karim Wassef) #280

There won’t be a net loss as long as I continue to take in 110g of protein a day.

I’m trying to achieve fasting like effects without actually fasting. By consuming enough dietary protein, I keep my body in balance. The glucose may be getting formed from the old mass being catabolized but there’s new amino acids immediately available to rebuild.