Kale - joint pain?

(Andrea) #1

I have psoriatic arthritis and have been struggling for years to try and identify foods that might cause inflammation. I gone Whole 30, Paleo, Keto, Carni and now back to Keto. Ups and downs on inflammation levels over that time. Only thing I’ve really identified so far is Almonds (and I love Almonds…!). Trying to also stay away from all nuts for a while.

But twice now, kale…I have it and 40-48hrs later my joints feel worse. My problem is nothing happens instantly, is it stress, is it hormones, it is something else? I don’t know. But simple question, anyone find Kale is a problem?

Thanks
Andrea

(less is more, more or less) #2

My knee pain has dramatically improved since going low-carb in 2017. My n=1: my wife frequently cooks kale, and I’ve never experienced an increase in joint pain afterwards. Since the pain didn’t depart “overnight,” a 2-day shift seems too quick in my experience.

As to what it might be, I haven’t a clue. If it’s chronic, I’d see a doctor.

(Andrea) #3

Thanks - I’ve given up with doctors and they’ve given up on me! I’ve been on the meds in the past, taken pain meds like sweeties but I really want to find a solution without drugs. I don’t use pain meds and my inflammation markers are reasonably low now. However, I do have joint damage that can’t be undone (caused even though I was on the drugs).

So it’s more bearable, manageable, low level pain that I have but I just can’t fathom why I get these bad days. Very frustrating! Need to do even more recording/tracking everything I do. Sleep and stress seem to be big ones for me.

(less is more, more or less) #4

I wouldn’t be alive without doctors and medicine. That there are bad or misinformed doctors is like giving up eating because there are bad chefs. There are medical doctors that will work with you on non-pharmacological therapies, but you have to find them. Frankly, the market, we consumers, are demanding a pill for everything. We need more people to demand non-drug remedies to help this change.

Heck, Dr. Westman, fully evidence-based, is why I’ve found great success on low-carb. Should I discount his advice?

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

(Andrea) #5

My brother is a “don’t ask questions, just take the pills” type of doctor and it frustrates me enormously. I just want to educate myself, make my own decisions. My rheumatologist told me if I wasn’t going to take the pills then don’t come back.

But I too wouldn’t be alive if it wasn’t for a good doc as I needed brain surgery a couple of years ago :wink:

#6

Oxalates. Almonds and kale are both high oxalate foods. Oxalate toxicity causes inflammation issues and can mimic many different autoimmune conditions depending on where they end up. I’d stick to a low oxalate ketogenic diet for awhile. It should offer some relief, but oxalates take a looong time for your body to clear, and trying to clear them too fast can make things worse instead of better.

I’m not a doctor. This is not medical advice. I’m just a peckerwood who lives in the hills with too many guns.

(less is more, more or less) #7

I’m reserving judgement on this new-to-me concept. Elliot Overton puts a fine point on the matter here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9hunHa-sbg (Human Performance Outliers podcast)

However, if an armed and rural peckerwood were to challenge me on the matter in person, I’d vigorously agree, of course.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #8

Spinach and chard have 100x the amount of oxalate of kale, which you would have to eat tons of everyday to have troublesome levels of oxalate. It’s like 17mg for 100gm of kale versus several hundred mg for spinach or Swiss chard in the same 100g serving.

The pain meds block your pain response which your body used to say “Hey, don’t do that, you’re causing damage” It’s good that you quit. I did 26 years on opiate pain medication and methadone because of gangrene, atherosclerosis and finally an amputation and the phantom pain that comes with it. I have been pain medication free since September 2018 when I started keto a few days into quitting them. Talk about keto flu/opiate withdrawal feels the same. I hope you’re feeling better soon. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Andrea) #9

Good job being pain med free!

I stopped everything about 5 or 6 years ago. Worst year of my life! lol Don’t recommend the cold turkey route! Think I hadn’t realised how much the meds were actually masking what was going on. Quite the shock when I stopped. I lasted 6 months and then had to go back on pain meds and wean myself off them slowly - when I got to the stage that every breath was agony I realised I needs pain meds. Still I’m very glad I got off them. Feel much more freedom actually understanding the pain and what I can/can’t do.

Also, 4 years ago I had a brain bleed (aneurysm) and I’m eternally grateful that I wasn’t on pain meds at the time given they can affect clotting. Hate taking any NSAID now.

(Khara) #10

My first thought also was oxalates. I’ve a couple people in my family that have problems with them. They don’t affect everyone and don’t affect everyone to the same degree. The research we did a while back, we came to the conclusion that for people with a higher tendency for inflammation from them, they just need to avoid them all if possible.

#11

It depends on the kale variety. Lacinato and Russian red kale are fairly low, but the more common curly kale is 27.8mg/100g. Yes, that’s not as bad as spinach or chard, which have closer to 1000mg/100g, but that’s still considered a high oxalate food, and should be avoided by people with oxalate issues.

(Andrea) #12

Thanks. It was the curly kale variety.

I think I’ll focus mostly on carni for a while. Not sure I can give up the 90% dark choc, but then I only have 10g a day so not much. As for veg, I’ll keep it to a minimum. Maybe just broccoli, cauli, romaine lettuce, tomatoes and the odd spring onion. Oh and pickles…yum!