Just got into an argument about keto

#1

I have a friend who’s been trying to lose weight for years and she asked me to help her stay accountable lately. This past weekend she said she was going to try to stick to keto/low carb.

Fast forward to today she screenshot her Myfitnesspal and I saw 90 carbs, so I asked if she was doing keto? She says “No, I stopped doing that ages ago. It’s too restrictive plus I don’t like eating a bunch of fat. 75% calories from fat is way too much”, so I said my bad I thought you said you were doing keto, but your fat doesn’t have to be that high. I eat high protein and less fat than that.

She then proceeds to say “well you aren’t doing true keto then”.

That’s when I started to rub my hands because I knew a good lesson was about to follow. I then told her keto varies, and “True Keto”, is about healing (increasing insulin sensitivity, controlling blood sugar, repairing metabolic damage and weight loss is just an added benefit due to reduced appetite Improved efficiency/regularity in the body)

So I asked “If I’m eating <20 carbs a day and I’m in ketosis although I’m eating a higher % of protein, then what do I call it since it’s not true keto?”

She avoids the question and rebuttals with “You’re low carb but your diet is protein heavy and not fat heavy so it isnt keto. Ketosis is theoretically your body burning it’s own fat stores for energy and as a result you lose weight, but you have to get into ketosis first. I’ve done the research, bottom line it isn’t sustainable for a lifetime. I wan’t something that isn’t going to wreck my relationship with food. It’s overly strict and only leads to binging”

I then restate my question and she asks “How do you know you’re in ketosis? What do you do, piss on sticks?”

Completely obliterated the debate when I said I have a blood glucose monitor and I check my Blood Sugar/Ketone levels throughout the day. Anymore questions?

She said “Cool and no because your ruining my mood and pissing me off this morning. I’m fat, not dumb. I can google stuff too” :laughing:

I basically told her keto varies and there are athletes and active people who eat >75 carbs a day and are still in ketosis, but she was stuck on the “True Keto” argument. I think she’s just frustrated because she’s given up so many times so she’s directing that anger towards me lol. It’s especially funny because I’ve researched articles for YEARS about keto; Even counter articles. This isn’t something I just googled 20 minutes ago :rofl: I could’ve schooled her about GKI indexes and more details but I won’t kick someone who’s already been defeated lol

A story of keto WoE and medical establishment mistrust
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

Your friend and you are both right. Phinney likes to empasize that “keto” or LCHF is not a high-protein way of eating, and your friend has probably picked up on that. But you are right that the context has to be a low intake of carbohydrate, and that individual requirements vary. Even the carb-intake threshold at which too much insulin gets released varies from person to person, as you note. I agree with you that any diet that promotes the use of ketones as fuel in place of glucose is a ketogenic diet.

One thing struck me that I just want to clarify: 75% of calories from fat is very close to an equal amount of fat and protein by weight. (If you do the calculations, equal weights work out to 31% protein and 69% fat, by calories.) I really fail to understand how your friend finds that to be too much, especially since many ketonians would consider 31% to be rather heavy on the protein. But then again, the whole macro-counting thing is not congenial to my way of thinking, so I have avoided it like the plague.

I wonder what kind of fat your friend was eating. If it was mostly vegetable oils, I could understand her revulsion. But to me, cooking with butter and bacon grease, making gravy and cheese sauce, and that sort of thing, hardly feels like very much fat at all.

#3

She said she doesn’t like fatty meat, but the argument seemed to be two parted.

1)Keto can vary
2)I wasn’t doing true keto

I aim for 4% calories in carbs (20g) 42% in protein (220g) and 54% from fat (127g). I believe in KETO not “true keto”. If you’re in nutritional ketosis or in a ketosis state by the GKI index, then yes you’re doing keto. The closes thing to “true keto” are the guidelines made to guide you into ketosis, which is the <20 net carbs, 70% calories from fat range. I’ve implemented the GKI index into my keto lifestyle as an added safety net, because you can have a 0.2 ketone level, which is technically ketosis, but if your blood sugar is 90, then you’re not in a ketosis state judging from the GKI index (anything greater than 9)

(Karim Wassef) #4

The underlying mechanism is keeping insulin and blood sugar low… all roads lead to Rome.

The tactical approach can include a higher than 25% protein diet. For some, it might be more than 20 carbs. But unless you know what you’re doing, it’s an excuse to keep eating whatever you want without understanding the consequences. The guideline of <20g was to make life easy. The guideline to eat >70% fat was to satiate. Keto is about freeing up the body’s grip on its own fat without struggling.

The glucose and ketone metric is good but it ignores the hidden effects of dietary fructose that strangles the liver and cause chronic insulin resistance - back to the underlying mechanism of keep insulin low…

Your friend sounds like an emotional eater. Understanding the addictive power of carbs is the first step in shedding the biochemical yoke that keeps her dug in the emotional relationship with food as a drug.

Then, once the body chemistry is free, the real problems needs to be addressed. Stress, fear, loneliness, depression… changing diet can help but there’s more real work to be done.

It’s hard when you care about an addict …

(Karen) #5

Ouch
I think you are wrong when you said you “have” a friend I think you can safely say that you “had” a friend. Winning and an argument is not quite as important as winning a friend to a healthier lifestyle and helping her lose weight.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

A sad outcome of the SAD, alas!

(Melora) #7

Sorry, but her saying “I’m fat, not dumb,” cracked me up. I’m sure you already know this, but we all have to come to keto in our own time. We’re trying to reverse years of being force fed the wrong information about a healthy diet. Reversing that mind set is a huge challenge, even for those of us reaping the benefits of keto. She’ll get there, just continue to be a positive influence in her life. Lead by example. Good on you for showing her the science, best way to win an argument.

(Khara) #8

The ketogenic diet is highly individual. How many members do we have here? We all do it anywhere from a little different to a lot different, but if we are producing ketones, then we are doing it. My focus is on a well formulated ketogenic way of eating, and finding what works best for ME. Some people aren’t in that place and so I definitely talk with them about it in a much different manner than I do someone who does a lot of research like myself.

I recently realized that I actually cannot control anyone else’s thinking or actions. Sounds simple and logical in print but how many of us actually try anyway? With this subject alone, how many have tried to control what our spouse or parent or friend or coworker eats by touting the benefits of keto? It’s hard not to do, right? It’s been so great for me I initially thought everyone should do it. I wanted to make billboards announcing it. But not everyone is where I am. Life became a lot lighter when I realized I didn’t need to take care of everyone around me. I can be loving and supportive and I can give help if and when they ask but I don’t need to force my way onto them without their asking, regardless of deeply wanting the best for them. I spend a lot of time biting my tongue, listening, answering if they ask questions, and when it’s time to talk, sharing my experience and what works for me. It makes relationships amazingly calmer.

Your friend actually asked you for help though. And it sounds like you were probably excited about that and really hoping to share with her what you have learned so far. I have been there. And I’ve had the same experience of someone throwing it away. Early on, this frustrated me to no end and I felt the need to push harder and show them proof. All that does is make people clam up, close off, become defensive, and search for arguments rather than listening. The hard sell, no matter how scientific, just doesn’t work with human psychology, especially with an emotional topic like this. Since I’ve been through this before and since I’ve changed my outlook on relationships, I would have genuinely tried to help her and get her started but I would have done so pretty cautiously and with a detached view of her choices. A few days later when she told me she “stopped doing it, it’s too restrictive, it’s too much fat”, I would have accepted she really wasn’t interested and dropped the conversation. It actually seems she wasn’t really all that serious when she asked you to help with accountability in the first place. It sounds like her initial asking of you was an emotional outburst as well as her quitting. Taking all that into account, I’d let go of any energy spent on debating the topic with her and look for people who you can have a reasonable conversation with.

Personally, I kind of look at debating keto like debating how one wipes their rear-end.:nerd_face: We are all different. Different shapes, sizes, strengths, flexibilities. Currently I don’t see a need for a bidet and don’t really want anyone hassling me to use one. But hey, maybe years down the road I’ll change and think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bacon. We are all in a different place. I’m pretty sure my keto today looks different than how my keto a decade from now will look. My physiology will have changed and so likely my macro needs will change. Currently I don’t see the need for MCT oil but maybe I will with time. Maybe that’ll come with the bidet. My point is, we all get it done, it just looks a little different with each of us. And if someone isn’t getting it done, it’s on them to figure out what works, for them.

#9

The definition of a keto is that someone is in ketosis. That’s driven by carb intake.

But you do need to get enough proteins. Your body needs them. So my primary mantra for keto is “Minimal carbs. Adequate protein. Fat as needed (for satiety).” Not high protein.

Being in ketosis is no guarantee of weight loss. Calories still count. It’s just that many people have a lowered appetite when in ketosis. That’s because some of the fat (and calorie) needs are coming from stored body fat, instead of needing to be eaten.

Ideally, hunger would determine how much fat you need to eat.

Ketostix aren’t that useful:

Ketostix measure excess levels of one type of ketone body, acetoacetate, in the urine. While in nutritional ketosis the body produces three types of ketone bodies: acetone, acetoacetate, and beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB). As the body becomes fat adapted two things happen: it becomes better at using ketones and it starts converting acetoacetate into BHB. This means that there will be less excess ketones and less of the only type of ketone measured by Ketostix.

#10

Well said! I’m definitely not going to waste any energy on someone who’s pushing me/rubbing me the wrong way and it’s one of the best changes I’ve made this year. If there’s negative energy involving something, then I distance myself from it.

I’m almost positive down the road when I’ve posted my updates of my weight loss on social media, the same people will be shocked, desperate, and will ask what did I do to lose the weight haha.

#11

I’m an arguer by nature, so I get that these situations can be challenging. It’s easy to get into a debate about who’s “righter” about what keto is. But talking with your friend about why she thinks it’s restrictive and what her options are so it doesn’t feel that way might be a better educational path. Also, eating a lot of fat is scary for a lot of people. We’ve been so brainwashed by the popular “science” of low-fat for so long that it’s hard to overcome that. If she doesn’t like meat, maybe encouraging her to check out some ovo-lacto vegetarian keto options would help.

(Khara) #12

:nerd_face::+1: New word.

(traci simpson) #13

She says “No, I stopped doing that ages ago. It’s too restrictive plus I don’t like eating a bunch of fat. 75% calories from fat is way too much”,
Well when you eat a regular conventional diet, its usually a bunch of fat and carbs and sugar etc., so…!

(Karim Wassef) #14

We live in a fatphobic culture. We need to help people rediscover the joy of fat.

Good tasty fatty foods… good German white sausage and French goose liver … Japanese fatty tuna and Nordic wild salmon.

Most people just imagine fried greasy food and oil everywhere. We have a brand problem.

(Scott) #15

This is what I was thinking. If your on the SAD than it is pretty much a calorie is a calorie. You are going to need to get some from carb or fat to function and she has already established that she is overweight so I guess she will be sticking with what hasn’t worked thus far. She have a carb craving problem and that made keto too difficult for her but she sounds like she is in denial about it. I feel bad for her.

(Scott) #16

I think they are avoiding saturated fat but eating foods deep fried in vegetable oils. This I always felt was bad but only recently embraced saturated fats.

(Karim Wassef) #17

Yup… they eat a ribeye with butter and a side of steak cut fries with mayo or sweet barbecue… then when they gain weight and get sick, they blame the steak and butter… when it’s that seed oil, fructose filled potato monstrosity that caused the problem.

(Khara) #18

Ugh. That just sounds horrible. And it used to be the fries with a sauce were what sounded good. Wow. Such a shift.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #19

To a hardcore alcoholic life without alcohol is “too restrictive”. And we all know that you can’t convince someone to give up alcohol and get rehabilitated, they really need to bottom out and come to that realization on their own. Trying to convince anyone that they need to change from your perspective is going to go over like a fart in church. Nobody could have convinced me that I needed to give up bread, noodles, crackers and such before I came to that realization myself, then it was easy.

But if the doctor had told me I definitely would be like “It’s too restrictive, who wants to live like that?” I think this is totally predictable and normal behavior for humans, no matter what we’re told…n=1.

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Jane- Old Inky Crone) #20

LOL, I do think my bidet is the best thing since sliced bacon :bacon:. I wouldn’t want to ever live without it! :grin: