Joe Rogan, Gary Taubes, Stephan Guyenet - marathon podcast

conversationstarters
science

#1

Discussing the differences in point of view between brain centric and endocrine (hormone) causes for obesity.

A marathon discussion that made me wonder if they were basically talking about the same thing while arguing with each other?


(Bunny) #2

What is this rattling all about?

Obesity ====> SUGAR <==== Diabetes

Enjoy The Joe Rogan Experience!


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #3

Guyenet is firmly in the “eat less, move more” camp. Taubes is quite as firmly not.


(Chris) #4

Neither knows how to have a debate. Joe couldn’t keep them in line either.


(charlie3) #5

Guyenet’s principle discussion technique is to be dismissive. I might read his papers, I would not try to discuss anything with him on any topic. May be it’s best to hear them separately then compare. Rogan shouldn’t create pairings like this until he is more skilled at moderating them.


(Marianne) #6

Thank you; I watched twenty minutes and that was clear at that point.


#7

Not massively convinced by Guyenet, also I don’t really like his attitude. I’m not sure what, if anything, new or interesting he’s bringing to the table other than the CICO argument.

I might be biased but I think that of the 100% correct answer, Taubes has 80% of it and Stephan has the remaining 20%. We know there is a place for CICO - on Keto you can retain weight and gain weight if you really push it on the fats and quantity of food. We also know if you’re not Keto the processed foods are highly addictive so it’s very easy to eat beyond satiety, far more than your body needs - that speaks to the ‘gluttony’ aspect of CICO which to my mind isn’t mutually exclusive with the carbohydrate/insulin hypothesis…it can sit happily alongside it making a catalytic contribution to the expanding waistline.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

Why do excess calories automatically go to the waisline? If the body is capable of lowering its metabolic expenditure when we cut calories, shouldn’t it also be capable of increasing metabolic expenditure when we give it an abundance of calories? What mechanism makes the body exclusively hoard excess calories in the adipose?

ETA: I mean, in a low-carb, low-insulin context, of course; we are all too familiar with the effect in a high-insulin context, after all. :grin:


#9

Dr Ben Bikman clears it up for us. Demonstrates how CICO is embraced by the insulin endocrine hypothesis of obesity.

It’s like Gary giving Stephan a big hug. Like the cartoon character Pepe Le Pew hugging the cat.


(Todd Allen) #10

I read the comments and decided to take a pass. I’ve heard Taubes, read his books and like his ideas. Have no desire to listen to Stephan, he sounds like an arrogant twit and I expect I’ve heard what he has to say too many times before.


(John) #11

Yep, love the JRE but that was a tough one. I think he knew it wasnt working out and finally ended it. Not much to gain from it. I didnt really understand why stephan kept on him about how he thinks calories dont matter when taubes doesnt say they dont matter he just says they come secondary to what you are eating. My other issue with it was all the 3 week studies stephen was citing. I need to see long term studies not these short ones.


(Running from stupidity) #12

There’s an entire recent thread here about just that, and it was requested to be closed several times because the OP kept making up lies about what people were supposedly saying and then using that to rant at people with phrases such as “science deniers” and so on, but (utterly bizarrely) no action was taken. If only he’d said not-eating wasn’t an absolute requirement for everyone, that would have seen it killed quick smart.


#13

I gave up on the episode about 1 hour in, it was too painful to watch :frowning: Guyenet was like a hurt child in a corner, Taubes tried to save the situation a few times and Joe failed to keep the conversation going in a calm and proper way…a mess :frowning:

I love Joe, I love his podcasts and a good debate with opposing views…this was a kindergarten sandbox


(Stickin' with mammoth) #14

This has a certain ring to it, gonna use that. Thanks.


(Todd Allen) #15

Smugnorant was my second choice.


(charlie3) #16

Rogan allowed the discussion to become a poor quality debate contest instead of a cooperative search for the truth. Debates are sophomoric, great sport for college kids who aren’t jocks, otherwise a waste of time. It could have been so much better.


(DougH) #17

I love the JRE, but Joe failed miserably as a moderator for that discussion. It was painful, and I doubt most would be able to sit through the whole discussion even if they were talking about the secret to millions, the winning numbers for the next powerball draw, or the formula for eternal life.

Guyenet only left me with the impression that he is a smug obnoxious prick, I don’t care what he is selling, I am not buying.


(Todd Allen) #18

Curiously Guyenet’s book “The Hungry Brain” features endorsements by Robb Wolf, Mark Sisson and Chris Kresser and has decent reviews on Amazon. I expect a paleo slant and probably some content of merit even if some of it is discordant with my thoughts and experience.

Still not going to listen to the podcast but I’ll give the book a look just out of curiosity. Fortunately there are libraries and other ways to read books without having to buy them…


Here is the conclusion of the book, 6 tips for weight loss. Funny Stephan and Gary can’t get along because I only see a couple points of modest contention.

SIX STEPS FOR A SLIMMING LIFESTYLE

For those of us who are motivated enough, we don’t have to wait for legislation to tackle overeating. With the right information, we can craft a food environment and lifestyle that send slimming cues to the nonconscious brain, resulting in easier weight management. The objective is to create a situation in which the motivations of the conscious brain and the nonconscious brain are aligned—both working to support your goal of an optimal calorie intake. The following six steps translate the research I detailed throughout this book into practical steps you can take in your daily life.

  1. Fix your food environment

Tempting food cues in your personal environment are powerful drivers of overeating due to their impact on brain areas that govern motivation and economic choice. Fortunately, one of the most effective tools in our arsenal is also one of the simplest: Reduce your exposure to food cues. Here are three measures you can take to do so.
First, get rid of all tempting, calorie-dense foods that are easy to grab and eat in your home and work environment—particularly those that are readily visible on counters and tables. This includes things like chips and cookies but also some relatively healthy items like salted nuts. Get rid of the ice cream in your freezer. Don’t give yourself the option to eat these foods, and you’ll find that you crave them less.
Second, reduce your exposure to food cues in general. It’s possible to overeat even healthy foods, so don’t tempt yourself too much. Limit the amount of visible food in your personal food environment at home and at work, particularly snack foods that are easy to grab and eat. Minimize your exposure to food advertising on television and elsewhere if you can.
Third, create effort barriers to eating. These barriers don’t have to be large to be effective. For example, if you have to peel an orange to eat it, you probably won’t go for it unless you’re genuinely hungry. The same goes for nuts in their shells. Perhaps the most stringent effort barrier is to limit the food in your kitchen to items you’d have to cook or reheat to eat. Chances are, if you have to cook something, you won’t eat it between meals unless you really need it.
Putting this together, a healthy food environment is one that effortlessly guides your eating behavior in the right direction. It doesn’t contain tempting, calorie-dense foods or ads that remind you of those foods; it contains little visible food in general; and it provides small effort barriers to eating the healthy food that is visible. Imagine a kitchen in which the only visible foods are whole fruit and nuts in shells, and eating anything else would require reheating something from the refrigerator. Now imagine a workplace in which the only available food is in a refrigerator, with no visible food on tables or countertops. That’s the goal.

  1. Manage your appetite

If your brain thinks you’re starving, it will eventually wear you down, no matter how strong your resolve. The solution is to give it the cues it needs to realize you aren’t starving.
The most straightforward way to do this is to choose foods that send strong satiety signals to the brain stem but contain a moderate number of calories. These are foods that have a lower calorie density, higher protein and/or fiber content, and a moderate level of palatability. This tends to include simple foods that are closer to their natural state, such as fresh fruit, vegetables, potatoes, fresh meats, seafood, eggs, yogurt, whole grains, beans, and lentils. Bread is surprisingly calorie-dense, even when it’s made from whole grains, so it can be easy to overeat. It may be preferable to get your starch from water-rich foods like potatoes, sweet potatoes, beans, and oatmeal than flour-based foods like bread and crackers. And foods based on white flour in particular, which tend to have a high calorie density and low fiber content, are definitely off the menu.
In the long run, you also need to keep the lipostat comfortable with your target weight. We don’t know as much about how to satisfy the lipostat, and we’ll need more research to get a clearer view, but there is suggestive evidence that eating more protein and limiting highly rewarding foods can help. Regular physical activity, restorative sleep, and stress management may also support a leaner adiposity set point, facilitating weight loss and maintenance.

  1. Beware of food reward

The brain values foods that contain calorie-dense combinations of fat, sugar, starch, protein, salt, and other elements, and it sets your motivation to eat those foods accordingly. This motivation is partially independent of hunger, such that it’s easy to blow past satiety signals if you’re eating something you love—think ice cream, brownies, french fries, chocolate, and bacon. These foods are a lot more rewarding than anything our distant ancestors ate, and they can powerfully drive cravings, overeating, and eventually, deeply ingrained unhealthy eating habits.
When we eat simple foods that are less dense in calories and closer to their natural states, they’re still enjoyable but they don’t have that intensely rewarding edge that drives us to overdo it. These include things like fruit, vegetables, potatoes, beans, oatmeal, eggs, plain yogurt, fresh meat, and seafood. Nuts may not be an ideal diet food, but they are less calorie-dense than they might seem because some of their calories pass through the digestive system unabsorbed. Choosing unsalted nuts reduces their reward value to a reasonable level. Simple foods like these help the satiety system and the lipostat stay in control of our eating behavior, matching our calorie intake to our true needs.
Not everyone finds the same foods highly rewarding, but most people have a pretty good idea what their own problem foods are. Common examples include chocolate, pizza, potato chips, tortilla chips, french fries, cookies, cake, and ice cream. Keep these foods out of your personal food environment. You can still eat them occasionally.
If you’re a dessert fiend and only decadence will do, try eating a piece of fruit with your dinner. This will promote sensory-specific satiety and reduce your craving for sweet foods at the end of the meal.
Watch out for habit-forming drugs, such as alcohol, caffeine, and theobromine (found in chocolate). These are inherently rewarding and can motivate us to take in calories we don’t need, such as those in beer, cream and sugar, chocolate, and soda. When you consider that a single alcoholic beverage contains 90 to 180 calories, a can of soda contains about 140 calories, coffee beverages can contain up to 500 calories—and we don’t drink any of those out of hunger—it’s not hard to understand how they can contribute to excess adiposity. It’s best to favor caffeinated beverages that don’t contain calories, such as green tea and black coffee; avoid soda; and if you drink alcohol, consider limiting your intake to one lower-calorie beverage, such as wine or spirits, per day.

  1. Make sleep a priority

I hope I’ve already dispelled the myth that sleep is a waste of time. Restorative sleep is an important cue for the nonconscious brain that has a major impact on performance and eating behavior—even if we aren’t directly aware of it.
The first step toward restorative sleep is simply to spend enough time in bed. This may be all it takes for many people to be well rested. For people who have trouble sleeping, it helps to make sure your room is completely dark at night, allow your room to cool down in the evening if possible, and only use your bed for sleeping and sex.
Your circadian rhythm is a related cue that affects your sleep quality and eating behavior via largely nonconscious processes. To give your circadian rhythm the right cues, try to get into bed and wake up at about the same time each day. Make sure to get bright, blue-spectrum light in the morning or at midday, ideally by spending time outside. And in the evening, avoid bright, blue-spectrum light by replacing full-spectrum bulbs with warm white bulbs, dimming lights, using programs such as f.lux on your electronic devices, and/or wearing blue-blocking glasses.
If you have a more serious condition that undermines sleep quality, such as sleep apnea, seek professional treatment. Most sleep apnea is readily treatable, and doing so can substantially improve your health, performance, and quality of life.

  1. Move your body

Regular physical activity can help manage your appetite and weight in at least two ways. First, it increases the number of calories you use, making it less likely you’ll overeat. Studies show that when people with excess weight exercise regularly, their calorie intake tends to go up, but usually not enough to compensate for the calories they burn (although this does vary by individual). Second, physical activity may also help maintain the lipostat in the brain, encouraging a naturally lower level of adiposity in the long run.
Our distant ancestors had a word for exercise: life. Movement has always been a key part of our species’ daily activity, and our bodies require it to function properly. It’s a fundamental ingredient for good health, physical and cognitive performance, emotional health, and healthy aging. As such, it’s an essential part of a healthy lifestyle, whether or not your goal is weight management.
The most important thing to remember about physical activity is simply to do it, every day if possible. Whether you’re walking, gardening, playing tennis, riding a bicycle, or strength training, it all counts. However, the ideal situation is to train your body using a mixture of different types of activity, as suggested by the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). HHS recommends a combination of moderate-intensity activities, such as brisk walking, high-intensity cardiovascular activities like running, and strength-building activities like lifting weights.
It’s important to choose activities that fit into your schedule and that you enjoy; otherwise, they may not be sustainable. I think commuting on foot or by bicycle is a great way to build physical activity into your daily life in a time-efficient way. It may not be an option for everyone, but it is for many more people than may realize it. If your commute is too long to do by bike, try parking a few miles away from work and walking, jogging, or biking the rest of the way. You might find that you enjoy it. Sports like basketball and tennis are a fun, social way to be active. In many areas, municipal leagues and public tennis courts make this an easy and inexpensive option.

  1. Manage stress

The threat response system evolved to protect us, but sometimes in the modern world it can undermine our quality of life and our best intentions to eat the right amount of food. I’ll outline five actions you can take to identify the problem and manage stress eating by giving your threat response system the right cues. The first action is simply to identify whether or not you’re a stress eater. If you are, then you probably already know it. The second action is to identify the stressor(s)—particularly chronic stressors you don’t feel you can control. These often include work stress, money, health problems, prolonged caregiving, interpersonal conflict, and/or a lack of social support.
The third action is to try to mitigate the stressor. There are multiple ways to do this. Can you fix it or avoid it? If not, is there a way you can turn what seems like an uncontrollable stressor into a controllable stressor? For example, if you’re stressed about money, can you make a concrete plan to improve your finances? If you have stressful health problems, can you lay out a concrete road map for managing your condition as effectively as possible? Making a plan will probably help you mitigate your stressor, but even if it doesn’t, it gives you a feeling of control that may reduce your drive to stress eat.
Another way to mitigate stress is by practicing mindfulness meditation. Mindfulness is a state of intentional, nonjudgmental awareness of the present moment, and meditation is an effective way to cultivate it. Most of what stresses us has little to do with what’s happening right now—it’s usually about what might happen in the future. I might not make that work deadline. I might develop diabetes. My partner might leave me. I might not make my credit card payment. Sometimes these concerns are rational and deserve attention, but they often run away with our minds and emotions in a way that isn’t helpful. By training ourselves to focus on the present moment, we can guide our thoughts in a more constructive direction.
There are many ways to meditate, but here’s a simple technique that works:
Find a comfortable seat where you can maintain a straight but relaxed spine. Keep your eyes open and your gaze slightly downward. Then just pay attention to the rise and fall of your abdomen as you breathe. You’ll notice things happening around you, and your mind will wander, but just keep gently bringing your attention back to your breath. Start with five minutes, and work your way up to fifteen. Think of it like exercise; it’s hard when you’re out of shape, but it gets easier the more you practice. Although research on mindfulness training has a long way to go, there is already substantial evidence that it can reduce stress and increase quality of life, and limited evidence that it can also improve health.
The fourth action is to replace stress eating with more constructive coping methods. Are there other enjoyable things you can substitute for comfort food when you’re stressed? How about calling a friend, making love, reading a good book, jogging, taking a hot bath, or gardening?
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the fifth action is to remove calorie-dense comfort food from your personal surroundings at home and at work. In the absence of highly rewarding items, there’s less of an incentive to self-medicate your stress with food.


(Stickin' with mammoth) #19

Nah. This one has words in it even ignorant twits can understand. Watching insults sail right over heads just wrenches all the enjoyment out of being a sanctimonious twit.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #20

Let me just be clear, here. You are spelling that word with the letter “i”, correct? :grin::grin::grin: