I don’t usually spend time responding to the relentless parade of media criticism of ketogenic or carnivorous diets, but I just made two(! granted closely related) exceptions.
One on the placebo effect and miracle cures and another on taking keto-adaptation into account.
I think the success of the carn in treating autoimmune disorders is because it is such an extreme elimination diet when practiced to be ribeyes and ground beef. When you eat nothing but beef, you have eliminated every possible allergen, save beef. If autoimmunity is all in leaky gut, the microbiome, toxicity and allergy response, a pure minimum elimination diet would offer the maximum relief if your allergy is gluten, dairy, FODMAPs, Omega 6, artificial sweetenerss, or what have you.
That there may be a placebo effect is beyond any user’s concern. It works for a lot of people. I don’t know that they care about the mechanism of it working. I think their concern is more about the safety and nutritional completeness.
I agree with Not a Chef. To me, carnivore, especially all beef carnivore, is a great elimination diet. i did Whole 30 after 3.5+ years of low carb, and I learned a lot. For instance, hot sauce/peppers and I don’t get along. It was only by not having them for a while that I realized what happens when I do have them. (I still like them, I just know now what they’ll do to me.)
Although PUFAs supposedly affect fat cells at the cellular level, to make them “hungry” (as compared to saturated fat, which make them “full”). This is not really an allergy.
I agree that it is that, but in my experience it’s more than that. As an example. Dr. Georgia Ede did a great deal of work in her life to find out what she needed to eliminate to feel good, and it was mostly meat that she ended up with: a ketogenic diet with a few plants. She ate according to that for years, but about four months ago started on a plant free diet. She lost weight, feels even better, and like many people have found, gets deeper ketosis for the same protein buck.
While I have said for a long time that all plants aren’t equally likely to harm, and intolerances are somewhat individual, it does seem to me that all plants have the ability to disrupt something, at least in people with certain kinds of issues. The general experience in the carnivore community is that there’s a qualitative difference between a tiny bit and none.
It could be a bit of both - health improvements and placebo effect.
I’m mostly carnivore now (some coffee, stevia, and some diet pepsi) because after a few years, keto wasn’t as effective as I remembered it to be. I started keto to help with AI issues, arthritis and rising BG numbers. My BG was under control quickly but my AI and arthritis issues seemed to be only partially controlled. It was better overall, but how much better varied month to month.
I’ve been mostly carnivore for about 6 months now, and feeling better. I have 4 inch tufts of hair coming in from when my hair loss stopped. My skin is better and I lost 20 lbs pretty easily (I’m mid BMI). My arthritis seems to be held in check with carnivory. If it is just the power of my mind, it’s having a great physical effect. 
I have hip arthritis which developed 6 years ago in my late 30s. Hip OA tends to lead to hip replacement within a few years. I’ve been putting it off. When my carbs were approaching 50g I was gaining weight, not particularly well, and the pain was progressing, albeit slowly. After half a year or mainly carnivore, I can play a game of basketball with the teen boys I coach, and not hurt excessively for the next week. Arthritis is still there, and I do ache, but it’s quite amazing what I can still do with those bone spurs in there. six years later… More than I could a year ago.
It’s not magic, and my diet hasn’t fixed my joint problems, but it’s helping. It could be from improved inflammation, reduced AI flare-ups, steadier BG, lost weight or it’s all in my head. The key is that there is something that has made me feel better. I’ll take whatever it is.
The real question is: “Does it matter?” If people are getting the results, who cares why it’s working for them? I’m sure that for some people it’s a placebo effect, but all that means is that their brain is working to make them healthier, so who cares what triggered it as long as it’s sustainable and it works?
This.
BTW, I’m not suggesting that it’s not interesting or useful to KNOW if it’s placebo or not, or a mix. (I’m doing my honours at uni, I love research. Very useful.) Just that it’s of lesser immediate importance (to people on the ground trying it) than does it work and is it safe, both of which, anecdotally, seem to be answered with “yes.”
The only problem. If it is placebo, knowing it is so probably mitigates the effect.
Seems to me it is likely that the elimination of the processed foods and why we are seeing better health when strictly carnivore, and when it comes to individual tolerances it maybe a matter of micronutrient and individual gut biome ratios as a possible factor!
Moreover the elimination of GMO veggies and the chemicals used on those veggies in the diet. In countries and localities that still allow GMO’s may be a factor also! And another is more natural saturated fats and naturally occurring trans fat in the diet if not eaten intentionally…
The carnivore diet is a good really good example of processed food elimination; demonstrating how bad the harm really is from the chemicals in food with the processed carbohydrates and how un-natural hydrogenated (trans fats) fats/oils really are when derived from plants and used to cook with! Some people need the extra virgin PUFA’s though, which you can get from marine sources!
I notice that I really crave the skin of wild Alaskan salmon when lightly cooked, more than I do the meat of the fish, not sure why that is, but it sure is the most tastiest part! It is deeply satiating to me! …Lol
It could be processed food elimination… or not. I’ve been keto for a few years, so I had dropped most processed carbs years ago… except sugar free chocolate chips with nuts - those were my treats.
When I dropped plants, it was mainly WFPB foods like nuts, seeds, snap peas, cucumbers, green beans… stuff like that (and the chocolate chips). TBH, I probably now have a higher proportion of the foods I eat being processed due to the presence of hot dogs, sausages, pepperoni sticks, cheese, butter and sour cream in my diet. LOL
Joe Rogan recently interviewed Rhonda Patrick (I think it was this one - could have been Kessler and Kahn) where they discussed how carnivore success seems to be greatest among those with autoimmune disease possibly due to leaky gut. Animal products are digested higher in the digestive tract, so health problems due to intestinal upset or leaky gut, are greatly improved.
That theory makes sense to me. I have a few AI issues, including celiac disease, and my arthritis is linked/caused by that (normal people don’t get OA in their 20s and 30s IMO).I also had insulin resistance. For someone without those health problems, I doubt carnivore would be as beneficial. I know I wouldn’t eat this way if it wasn’t making a big difference… Carbs taste good.
I can see why certain people would thrive on a carnivore diet, interesting how vitamins can do the polar opposite (pro-oxidant) in a person with glutathione deficiency (e.g. histamine intolerance, auto-immune disease etc.) and I can see how bone broth would help with this also!
References:
- “… I have had histamine intolerance (and specifically DAO deficiency) all my life. Until my 40s it was just inconvenient. Then it became chronic.
My auto-immune system became “hysterical.” I started having reactions to more and more foods, and then a banquet of environmental toxins, that glutathione plays a crucial role in detoxifying.
I was intolerant to vitamin c, and to quercetin, which acted as pro-oxidants (rather than as anti-oxidants), at even tiny levels in my toxic body. It turns out that glutathione is a master anti-oxidant that regulates these anti-oxidants.
I was also intolerant to all methylation donors. Methylation involves four interlocking, conversion processes; folate, methylation, B12, and glutathione that are important to detoxification.
I was also intolerant to all methylation donors. Methylation involves four interlocking, conversion processes; folate, methylation, B12, and glutathione that are important to detoxification.
According to Dr Ben Lynch, the glutathione cycle is the most important of these cycles. Until glutathione depletion is addressed all other methylation interventions are futile.
Also I had chronic acute inflammation markers which were “off the charts” including ceruloplasmin (which regulates copper), c-reactive protein, and metabolic markers. I put on 30 kilos in about 6 weeks in response to inflammation.
It turns out, a glutathione deficiency, was driving my chronic symptoms
…” …More
Some individuals have altered DAO production due to a number of different factors including (7):
•Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO) – some gut microbes produce high amounts of histamines as a byproduct of their metabolism.
•Copper, Vit C & B6 Deficiency : Copper and Vit C are crucial components of the DAO enzyme and B6 is a key cofactor that enables DAO to degrade histamine.
•Leaky Gut Syndrome: Intestinal permeability creates major inflammatory stress in the body which can contribute to poor DAO function.
•Genetic Polymorphisms in DAO enzyme – this can be seen on the 23andme SNP’s. A homozygous DAO would make someone more susceptible to developing a histamine intolerance.
Histamine receptors are located all over the body and have many important functions including:
•Histamine H1 receptors: Smooth muscle and endothelial cells affecting skin; blood vessels (Benadryl and Claritin block activity of these receptors)
•Histamine H2 receptors: Cells in the intestines control acid secretion, abdominal pain, and nausea; heart rate
•Histamine H3 receptors: Central nervous system controlling nerves, sleep, appetite and behavior
•Histamine H4 receptors: Thymus, small intestine, spleen, colon, bone marrow and white blood cells; inflammatory response …More
