Is the 5 Stages of Fasting a real thing?

(Full Metal KETO AF) #6

You might have to hack around it by starting the app so many hours before your actual fast. @TimeForMe uses it. I saw it on another thread this morning, maybe she knows. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Bunny) #7

I would never ever, ever fast extensively for the purposes of burning body fat if I intended to keep it off long-term (maintenance) but more for the purposes to catabolize lose skin and autophagy, that’s what fasting is good for!

To me fasting extensively is something done rarely and if you keep doing it continuously you might get fatter than you where before because you go back to metabolizing glucose rather than oxidizing glucose from the loss of lean skeletal muscle tissue and not lifting some weights combined with aerobic exercise and by not increasing carbohydrates in contrast to increasing dietary fat intake? Your body just go backs to what it was doing before you started by this severe restricting of carbohydrate paradigm and when your in a state of restricting carbohydrates and not training the mitochondria to oxidize carbohydrates?

Like Phinney, I think it is a double edged sword?

Dr. Stephen Phinney - 'Metabolic Effects of Fasting: A Two-Edged Sword’

Phinney: ”…In brief, any regimen involving fasting beyond 24-hours has not been proven effective in sustaining weight loss long term. And while it can temporarily speed weight loss, this comes with a long-term price. After just one day of fasting, you begin to lose body protein from lean tissue – from places like muscle, heart, liver, and kidneys. These organs and their functions are things that we want to preserve, and definitely should not be given up lightly. So while you may lose weight according to the scale, part of it will be at the cost of your important, metabolically active tissue. …” …More

Fung: “…Under conditions of fasting, the body has several priorities. The first priority is to maintain sufficient glucose for normal brain functioning. Glucose requirements are substantially lowered as the liver and muscles switch to fatty acids, and the brain switches to ketones. Some of the glycerol from fatty acids are able to be converted to glucose, but there is a limited amount. The rest must be delivered by gluconeogenesis, so there is still a small amount of protein breakdown. However, this protein is not specifically muscle cells. Instead, the proteins that turn over the most rapidly are the first proteins to be catabolized for glucose. This includes the skin and intestinal lining. In over five years at my Intensive Dietary Management program (www.IDMprogram.com), which uses therapeutic fasting for weight loss, I have not yet referred a patient for skin removal surgery despite patients losing over a hundred pounds. Immune cells also have a high turnover, and may be reduced, accounting for some of the anti-inflammatory effect seen clinically. Muscle cells, which turn over infrequently, are relatively spared. Overall, protein catabolism drops from approximately 75 g/day to only 10-20 grams per day. This preserves protein during prolonged starvation. But, is this low level of protein breakdown a bad thing? Not necessarily. If you compare a lean person to an obese one, it is estimated that the obese person contains 50% more protein. All the excess skin, connective tissue holding up the fat cells, blood vessels to supply the extra bulk etc is all made up of connective tissue. Consider a picture of a survivor of a Japanese prisoner of war camp in World War II. Is there any excess skin on that body? No, all this extra protein has been burned for energy, or to maintain more important functions. …More

#8

Thinking out loud :thinking: … This reminds of a question I’ve been pondering:

Does fasting’s autophagy help reduce the normal increased elasticity/gravity impacts on skin as we age, or collagen alone, or a combo of the both? Does anyone know for sure anything about this? In my observation, seems that average people from traditional religous fasting cultures (whether weekly IF or monthly 3 day EFs) do have skin that is less crepey as they age…

For non-obese and non-overweight folks like myself (particularly white ones lacking the melanin which tends to prevent wrinkly/crepey skin till much later in life), is autophagy helpful for preventing “normal” crepey skin until age 70+, 80+ or is it more a matter melanin genetics? Tons of folks with global south and north asian genetics age with minimal wrinkles until they turn 85 or 90+, regardless of presence of collagen in the diet…

#9

@DeeCS
You can “trick” the app to sort of account for already being in ketosis by editing the start time for your fast to however many hours early.

So if you’re fasting for 72 hours, you could set your fast for 84 hours total and edit your start time for twelve hours ahead of when you truly started.

I don’t do that because I like that clean start and knowing that whatever the icons say, I’m actually likely doing “better” than what they show.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #10

I realize this was Dr. Phinney and he and Dr Fung have drastically different opinions on this. Dr. Fung says something like,

“This is ridiculous! Do you think your body is stupid? That if you go without food for a few days your body will attack your organs instead of all the junk protein it’s supposed to clean up?”

No, I believe Dr Fung on this one. Fasting doesn’t cause indiscriminate breaking down of important organs and healthy tissues. But then again I haven’t watched much of Dr. Phinney, even though I know he’s an iconic figure in KETO. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Bunny) #11

I do not think either of them are wrong, they are both right that’s why it is called a double edged sword and I think Phinney’s concerns are very legitimate that some people could get the wrong idea about fasting and damage their resting metabolic rate EER permanently or have conflict with other serious medical conditions or kill themselves indirectly or prematurely with it?

As for the human body not being stupid I also think fasting is a hormetic discipline for spiritual purposes in a different kind of way that may not be so healthy according to what you want to measure and call it good or bad science!

We talk a lot about the physical aspects of fasting, but not the spiritual and mystical connection of the conscious mind shifting between the microcosm and macrocosm in a near death paradigm.

See also: Valter Longo fasting selectively; Indeed, chronicity can be harmful, regardless of a fed or fasted metabolic state—for example, acute mTOR activation promotes muscle hypertrophy, whereas chronic activation produces atrophy [58–60], and intermittent AMPK activation enhances neuroplasticity, but sustained AMPK activation impairs it [61]**. …” …More

(Failed) #12

I feel the same :slightly_smiling_face:

(Robert C) #13

I think this is more about patient populations. Looking at very old studies that showed issues - before the diabetes epidemic - could be very misleading (especially if fasting non-obese people, starving down to low body fat percentages). Yes, refeeding after a long fast with candy bars can cause refeeding syndrome (deadly) but, shortened fasting cycles with reasonable refeeds is what Dr. Fung at the IDM program suggests (and has had 0 refeeding syndrome cases).

The IDM patient population starts out very overweight with severe problems that are starting to affect the kidneys and have already likely affected the liver. They will die prematurely without a big intervention - and Phinney’s “well formulated ketogenic diet” with a 400 plus pound person might take more years than their kidneys and liver have.

IDM sweet spot seems to be 3 36 to 42 hour fasts per week (maybe after an initial longer fast).

Assign Phinney several hundred 300 to 400 pound patients in their 50’s or later from multiple ethnic backgrounds, speaking different languages and with little or no understanding of dietary macros - make him responsible for any early death - he’ll be working like Dr. Fung quickly!

(Bob M) #14

I think Fung is correct too and Phinney is wrong.

(back and doublin' down) #15

I’m a Fungster. Phinney does have dome good points & I respect him, lean more towards Dr. Fung.

I trust my n=1 that’s telling me fasting is helping. Fasted 93 hours, got down to 203#s. Ate TMOD x2, now finishing up a 42 hr fast, down to 201 on the scale. Planning to keep on this regime for several weeks. (Onederland and beyond)

(Full Metal KETO AF) #16

That’s incredible! 92 lbs in two weeks :hushed:
Keep that up for several weeks and you’ll disappear! :joy::joy::grin:

Congratulations on the loss :cowboy_hat_face:

(Susan) #17

I was wondering what the typo was as well, and the actual numbers hehehe. I must not be fasting properly, hehe!!

(back and doublin' down) #18

ugh. fixed it. LOL

oops.

(back and doublin' down) #19

not a chance! Your sparkle is so motivating!

Yanno, I hadn’t fasted for months. But I could feel the carbage creep, not in my weight so much as in how my body was feeling. I had 1/2 bag of cheetos on a long drive home. Something just said stop eating, right there in the middle. I think I’m keeping them around as a reminder. That 93 hr fast helped my mind get back to where it belonged. Finished a 42 hr stretch today, and my refreed feels in check. I’m feeling the fat start a new round of disappearing.

If it’s possible that other healthy things are happening when fasting, all the better. KCKO

(Susan) #20

This forum is the best motivation ever for me personally to always keep on track and keep focused =). We will get to our Maintenance one day and can keep encouraging each other and all the new Keto followers to keep on Ketoing =).

(back and doublin' down) #21

:100: Percent why this forum drew me back :slight_smile:

(Bob M) #22

I don’t know how they do this. Really, I don’t. At one time, 40+ pounds heavier, I had no problem fasting 3+ days. Now, I struggle to make it over night (32+ hours). Once. Per week. Tried to get one 36 hour and one 22 hour fast in last week, and made it two 22 hour fasts, but that’s it.

I also think that type of schedule, with no breaks, might lead to lower metabolism. At some point, you have to tell your body you’re not starving, and that schedule seems unlikely to do that.

(Susan) #23

@monsterjuice and I have been doing this IDM protocol since the last week of October until November 30 (so for a bit over a month).

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@Ilana_Rose was suggesting it to someone on a thread, and I saw it and so she explained it to me further, and so Ashley and I thought it would be a great thing for try for a month or so.

I am enjoying it as I take the Fast to 44 hours instead if their 42 as I like doing a 20:4 IF of Lunch at 1pm, Supper at 4:30 and fasting from 5pm-1pm but this has worked well with my family schedule as well.

For the month of December I am planning to do my regular 20:4 and to do a Fast only for the ZornFast (and I will probably do 72 hours for that, as I like partaking in that monthly).

I still have over 100 pounds to lose, so this is easy for me NOW --but; over time, when I am not obese anymore and as I get closer to Maintenance at that point, I might be like you as well, @ctviggen and not be able to do this. I am hoping at that point I can still do some Fasting to get the benefits of Autophagy still though.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #24

You should be able to still fast. I’m sitting at about 115lbs (I’m 5’ 2"). I have a BMI of 21, but 30% body fat (its all in my thighs). I still do a 48-hour and a 72-hour fast a month. But I don’t do much more than that. I like eating :slight_smile:

(Bob M) #25

I’ve seen people who are thin (such as Peter Attia) who can fast 1+ weeks. I just got cold after a while doing fasting and had to take time off. Was that due to my metabolic rate lowering? It’s unclear to me.

Fung seems to believe (or maybe it’s just what I see of his) that one can do these schedules forever. But there are no scientific studies of this.

Thus, why I don’t think Phinney is correct about fasting, it’s unclear to me that we can fast every single week without a break.

I think as long as you’re able to keep a schedule with no issues such as getting really cold or hungry, then maybe it’s ok.