Is Keto a cult or groupthink?

(Full Metal KETO AF) #84

I saw no mention of carbs, addiction or alcohol. WTH…Issues anyone?:cowboy_hat_face:

(Robert C) #85

The comparison of carbs and alcohol addiction is made in the link below (which @240lbfatloss replied to).

Essentially switching alcohol for carbs in my previous point - which I also found to be only slightly comparable (i.e. a little fruit once in a while is not the trigger for most people that alcohol is to an alcoholic).

(PJ) #86

Hmmn. You know, there is really no one thing that can be said fairly about the addictive factor of carbohydrate-heavy foods.

Fructose, esp. in the morning, will make me eat like a starving hyena all day. I’ve been anorexic for many years (for health reasons, not psychology reasons) and that’s the one thing that IF I could get myself to ingest in the morning would ensure I ate enough – usually more than enough – all day. Who knows why. I’m like 15 different nationality backgrounds so my genetics would be labrinthian even if we knew more about that topic.

If I drink milk, it feeds an existing addiction that is probably linked to the opioid effects. I crave it the more I drink it. If I don’t limit it, and “ignoring the gnawing sense of want” for it, I’ll be waking up after 3 hours, staggering to the fridge at 3 in the morning, drinking it out of the carton, falling against the fridge door saying OH THANK GOD – it’s like heroin for me, literally. I just have to not have it. I drink homemade kefir and I over-ferment it to nearly solid and still have to limit the amount because the lactose, I suspect it is, affects me so extremely.

Wheat is the most powerful addiction but it’s very low-level. I suspect it’s partly tied to more gut bacteria than the rest of my cells wanting it as a substrate in my bowel or something, but who knows. Wheat’s the one nobody thinks they are addicted to but a staggering number of people cannot live without for any length of time before abandoning all health concerns to the wind because they can’t live without bread.

Some people have no issues. I know people who drink too many beers damn near daily for years and years and they can just quit drinking and it’s no big deal. I know other people who are alcoholics after a very short time of regular social drinking. This is probably greatly genetic.

But when it comes to food, having been fed stuff that CAN cause actual narcotic like effects in and symptoms in people, often 3x a day for your entire life, can certainly cause powerful effects in people, and I suspect it has in a lot of our population.

But not all. Because people differ. So I get that one can’t just say it’s an addiction for everyone and be correct. But I also think the idea that it’s only that food has addictive biochemical properties for some rare tiny percentage of our population is probably not accurate either. Just IMO.

One thing I do believe though: the less damaged the metabolism seems to be, the more people are able to cycle out of keto and back into it again – or, honestly, simply use ketosis more like a “spectrum” (which it is) than either/or – without issue. Not everybody has that ability… either certain foods will send them face-down into the pasta, or they can cycle off plan but it’s really destructive and takes weeks to get back to where their energy is functionally decent on keto eating again.

Just to caveat what I said at top though: despite fruit and milk and wheat having these effects on me, those mostly only kick in after consistent and growing intake. (The fructose one is pretty immediate, even per-meal, though.) But none of them are overwhelming to me like alcohol would be to an alcoholic. So while addiction may be a valid model for a lot of this, the problem is that alcohol addiction is so extreme – and triggering so radical – that it seems like a better analogy model is needed.

PJ

(Full Metal KETO AF) #87

Very observant and smart post @RightNOW. :cowboy_hat_face:

(PSackmann) #88

Our ancestors ate berries, which existed 7-8K years ago, as well as grains and seeds. Greens were used for cooking and teas, not as a calorie source. Roots were eaten as well. Hunting and fishing was important, not only for current needs but to provide fat for storing food for winter. The veggies and fruit served a part of eating, not substantial on a caloric basis, but at times a substantial volume. This was all pre-agriculture, and even after the agricultural revolution began. Don’t forget about mushrooms and other fungi, which are very old indeed and have a good nutritional profile, once you get past the risk of poison

#89

I dove down the oxalate rabbit hole, i’m histamine intolerant, and I removed the majority of veggies+other high oxalate foods from my diet.
Healthy vegetables is an oxymoron!

(hottie turned hag) #90

I second this!!

(Ken) #91

I think you’ll find that after derangement is eliminated and you spend an extended time in Maintenance that these issues either disappear or are considerably less acute. My sensitivity to specific foods I always had severe reactions to no longer happens when the discordant foods are consumed occasionally.

Maintenance is not an issue of chronic ketosis, but of periodic ketone production. The focus is glycogen management, with lipolysis (ketosis) used to insure liver glycogen is never completely refilled so as to prevent readaptation into chronic lipogenesis.

(Ken) #92

WTH? I think a complete reading of the thread is in order…

(Full Metal KETO AF) #93

@240lbfatloss I did read the whole thread Ken, I just referred back to his last post because of your comments and didn’t realize you were referring to an earlier post, and I found your post to @PaulL to be a bit agro.

If I don’t fully agree with your views that doesn’t mean I didn’t read them. I find some of your posts interesting but don’t always agree with your views. After all we’re individuals on or own journey and your n=1 may not apply to Paul or me. You may not agree with everyone else but you should be tolerant with other people’s views even if they are contrary to your own. Accusing someone’s personal experience as being false is just a bit closed minded about us being individuals with the freedom to express our views on a forum and it seems that you took Paul’s post as a personal affront because it isn’t your n=1 experience.

:cowboy_hat_face:

(Ken) #94

No, I consider Paul’s views to be dogmatic, and if followed by people they eliminate some very effective strategies to solve problems like Stalls and maintain good health. I never put my views as the ONLY solution to issues, just potential ones.

closed #95
#96

I think this discussion has about run its course and has devolved into an airing of personal grievances. There are many differing opinions here, and I don’t believe groupthink will be a probem any time soon since we can’t agree on pretty much anything.