Is Keto a cult or groupthink?

(Robert C) #44

I think Keto can seem like a cult to an individual.

If you can’t stop talking about it or thinking about it and you continue Keto even if it is not working for you (due to a genetic issue or gallbladder issue for example) then, it might be very much like a cult for you.

Just as some vegans will ignore weight gain, bad blood markers etc. because they were raised in a vegan family - pretty much a cult-like behavior to stick with something not working.

Another example might be cycling in and out of Keto. Ancestrally we may have been in Ketosis a lot of the time but when a large grove of easy to obtain fruit presented itself in early summer, when people were running around doing things in the good weather (needing extra energy) and while the animals (having just come out of winter) were not really worth the effort to hunt and kill (being unfattened) - people would likely have eaten the fruit.

Someone with a Keto-cult-like mentality would immediately try to rip apart that idea. Instead of accepting the example and trying a couple of weeks of whole food fruit and some starchy vegetables after 10 or 15 weeks of solid Keto (to see how they react - positively or negatively) they will instead refuse. Even if they feel dragged down or psychologically burned out on Keto - they’ll keep going (potentially downhill) without a break.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #45

The idea that our ancestors ‘fattened up’ on plant food during the summer is a vege/vegan myth. What was on offer during the summer months was hardly much more than what was on offer during the winter months. Animals may have packed less fat during spring and early summer than later, but they were still far more energy dense than 99% indigestible cellulose.

(Robert C) #46

Hmmm… I wonder if you are proving my point?

Claiming fattening on fruit is a myth and stating that summer and winter availability of fruits and vegetables were about the same might not be a good starting point if you want to convince someone of your position.

Also, ancestral man would not have worried about energy density. Their child is hungry coming out of winter and will stop crying after being given an orange (even a crappy orange) - that is probably what they cared about.

I think many animals fatten when food is plentiful - why would humans be different as we evolved - especially in climates with longer harsh winters? We know we have both a glucose and non-glucose capable metabolism - in survival mode, you do what needs to be done (including preparing for winter). Especially pregnant women that will have a baby in deep winter - they’re not going to skip anything they know will fatten, even if the fruit was a lot less well-endowed (they would just eat more).

(Bob M) #47

Well, I’m somewhat cult-ish, in that I don’t frequent vegan or vegetarian sites. :smiley: Of course, I ate near vegetarian and very low fat for a long time, so I’ve been there, done that. Had mood swings, blood sugar swings, depression, etc.

#48

The Cult of Keto!? That’s preposterous!

…now everyone drink this Keto-Aid. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

7S3U

(I kid though… I’m a huge advocate of Keto and its WOE. I could never go back to eating the old way and I tell everyone about it at the first opportunity I get…oh wait…):wink:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #49

Once you’ve been around long enough, you will start getting messages about the rituals (when and where). You might want to start shopping for robes and candles. I know where you can get a great deal on incense, too.

Oh—and be sure never to speak of the mothership! :wink:

(hottie turned hag) #50

THIS IS EVERYTHING @ChrisW love love love :smiley:

(Lazy, Dirty Keto 😝) #51

Hmmmm, why’s that out of curiosity?

(hottie turned hag) #52

Oh girl not going there, hellnaw. :slightly_smiling_face:
I’m too apathetic to care is the actual core basis for my beliefs.
#apoliticalAF

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #53

The point I’m making and will continue to make every opportunity is that what we know as fruits and vegetables did not exist prior to about 7-8k years ago before the beginning of the agricultural revolution. Our paleolithic ancestors did not eat their wild plant predecessors because they were mostly indigestible cellulose. They were just as full of indigestible cellulose during the summer as during the winter, with few exceptions. Thinking they constituted a substantial part of the summer diet is a myth. Our ancestors hunted and fished for their food because that was where the nutrition was. Animals can fatten in the summer because the herbivours can digest cellulose. The predators, including us, eat them. Try eating grass and tree leaves and see how far that gets you.

(Robert C) #54

Probably a matter of latitude.

People near the equator living in jungles probably did not pass up the abundant plant food lying around to see if they could catch an animal while avoiding snakes, tigers, rhinos etc.

At the same time, I am pretty sure our glucose metabolism did not originate less than 7-8K years ago. I’m pretty sure it was around way before that and again, for survival, I believe we would have fully used both our glucose and non-glucose metabolism.

The idea that we couldn’t obtain nutrition from plants seems odd since it is the change from plant eating to higher density meat eating that is supposed to have helped us evolve so well (especially bigger brain - very useful).

Either way - now we have enhanced fruits and vegetables. If you’re burning out on Keto (physically or mentally) it could be good to change things up for a week or two (I know, I know, Keto cultists will go crazy reading that :grinning:)

(Susan) #55

@Carl and @Richard --they have to see this, it is hilarious… I figured if we didn’t tag them they might miss it.

image

Scroll up Carl and Richard --the orginal is awesome by @ChrisW --it has words but when I copied/pasted it doesn’t.

(hottie turned hag) #56

@Momof5 yessss!! It needs to be a banner atop the forum.

(Susan) #57

I just wanted to make sure they see it but copy/paste I cannot get it in its proper form, it is too cute!

(hottie turned hag) #58

Reposting it for support and in its original brilliant form :grinning:

(Susan) #59

Awesome, =) I just did copy/paste not the proper quote way. Thanks for figuring it out, it is amazing. hehe.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #60

Actually, I agree with changing things up.

(Polly) #61

There is a metabolic pathway through which ingestion of fructose drives eating beyond normal satiation. The wonderful Dr Gary Fettke talks about it in this

I am very far from vege/vegan and can see that there would be some survival advantages in going into winter carrying a bit more fat. Not to the extent of bears hibernating perhaps but providing the stored food resources to last through the cold months when hunting and gathering becomes more difficult.

The woodlands and hedgerows in England are still filled with berries and nuts in late summer and autumn. These are wild rather than cultivated but would have some pretty similar ancestral varieties.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #62

Sure, Polly, that would nice, but what you and @RobC either don’t understand or don’t want to understand, is the edible vegetable stuff we see today, did not exist during the Pleistocene when humans evolved. What existed was mostly indigestible cellulose, not the large, luscious, starchy and sugary fruit and vegetables we have today. There were no plants to eat to ‘fatten up’ for the winter or ‘put on a bit more fat’.

Human capacity to digest carbohydrates and utilize glucose for metabolic fuel derives from our primate ancestry. We have evolved away from that ancestry for several million years, losing the gut necessary to digest cellulose while growing a brain necessitating a much more energy dense food source than plants. Yes, our paleolithic ancestors probably ate primitive berries, nuts, seeds and other plants. But to think that such dominantly cellulose materials provided any additional nutrients to get through winter is total nonsense. They expended as much energy picking berries as they got from eating them. In fact, probably less.

(Polly) #63

No @amwassil I do get what you are saying.

What I don’t accept is the idea that during the time when the evolutionary lines of homo sapiens separated from those of the great apes those proto-humans did not eat every available source of food available to them.

I am not envisaging parties of ape-like women and children out with baskets gathering fruits for preservation, rather nomadic peoples picking the berries and nuts which they passed by and eating them as they travelled. The plants have also evolved over time in order to facilitate their own reproductive interests. In order to attract wandering mammals and birds they have made their fruit a bit brighter and sweeter. Of course, selective breeding of plants by agricultural humans has altered the fruits even more.

That we have the metabolic pathway described by Gary Fettke suggests to me that there was most likely an evolutionary advantage in having it. So dismissing the idea with “Sure, that would be nice!” makes me think you are not feeling receptive to the idea that plants have much of a place in the human diet.

For what its worth, I hardly touch fruit these days but consider it would have been a useful resource for my lean active ancestors.