Is It Time For A Plant-Based Agriculture?

conversationstarters

(John Linnon) #1

I’ve posted this article from North American Vegetarian Society, which I believe offers more evidence that a vegan diet, with proteins, fats, lectin-reduced grains, and fiber derived from plants instead of animals, is not only more beneficial for people’s health, but the environment and farmers, as well:
The compost piles and growing beds on Wilt Bonsall’s farm might lead one to believe that he is an organic farmer. However, careful observation would reveal not only an absence of bags of chemical fertilizer, but also containers of bone meal (ground-up bones) and dried blood. Nor will you find a pile of animal manure anywhere. In fact, for the Last twenty years, Bonsall has been farming veganically, a term and method new even to many vegetarians. He’s taken organic growing one step further by purposefully avoiding the use of any animal by-products (see The Khadighar Farm ).

So, who’s even eating organic foods these days? Apparently far more people than ever. Twenty-three percent of shoppers surveyed by Packer, Vance Publications reported buying organic produce in a six-month period. Mainstream supermarkets must recognize this trend because nearly half of them have joined health food stores and co-ops in offering selections of organic produce. Few health or environmentally conscious people would argue that growing our food with chemicals is more desirable than using organic methods. There are many reasons why vegetarians should buy and support organic options. However, we must also realize that our purchases in many cases help support animal agriculture.

Why do organic growers rely on animal-based fertilizers such as manure and slaughterhouse by-products? They are used for their fertilizer value including essential nutrients such as nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium; and manure’s organic matter helps to improve soil structure. Historically, it has been readily available in rural communities for free or low cost, and growers who also raise animals have their own abundant supply. Organic gardeners and farmers view the breaking down of animal products in a garden a natural component of the organic process.

Although commercial organic growers are encouraged to obtain manure from “organic farms,” this is not required for organic certification. Home gardeners are only likely to obtain organic manure if they live in rural areas, but according to Howard Scheps, Master Gardener on the board of directors of Project Grow in Ann Arbor, Michigan, many of them purchase manure originating from non-organic factory-farmed animals.

The exploding population of livestock in factory farms has resulted in a parallel increase in animal waste, and this excess manure is a tremendous problem. Livestock in the United States produce 230,000 pounds of manure per second, and nitrogen from these wastes is converted into ammonia and nitrates which leach into ground and surface water causing contamination of wells, rivers and streams.

“The factory farmer has a waste product that he has to get rid of, and I want him to bear the full cost of the ground, water, and air pollution it creates. If the expense causes him hardship, then maybe he will try something less environmentally destructive such as growing brussel sprouts,” said Scheps. “When we take or buy manure from animal husbandry farms, they profit. When we get it for free, we are at the very least ameliorating their responsibility and burden. Avoiding manure is the most effective ‘free market’ method of forcing ranchers to internalize these caustic and expensive by products (water and air pollution caused by cattle waste) which are described by economists as ‘externalities.’

What about manure that comes from a cow living in a traditional country barn? In order for a dairy farm to be commercially viable, many animals must exist on a limited amount of land and a waste problem will therefore exist. Although the conditions may not be quite as harsh as they are on factory farms, dairy cows are still forced to maintain pregnancy – lactation cycles, and their mate calves are usually sold to veal producers soon after birth. When they are no longer considered productive, most dairy cows are slaughtered for their flesh and skin. When we take manure from these farms, we support the exploitation of animals.

But How Do You Get Your Nitrogen?

The first question that many people ask when thinking about gardening without the use of animal products is “How can we compensate for not using manure?” Bonsall says that asking such a question is like asking a vegetarian how he or she gets enough protein.

Asking the “compensation question” implies that using animal products for food or fertilizer is optimal. Vegetarians know there are many reasons why a plant-based diet is superior to a meat-based diet, and the ethical reasons for veganics are fairly obvious. Many of us, however, are unaware of all of the other benefits associated with using only plant-based fertilizers.

Fertility And Land Utilization

Soil fertility does not originate from animals; it comes from plants at the bottom of the food chain. Nor does human nutrition originate from animals. When non-vegetarians eat flesh, they obtain nutrients that come from whatever that animal was fed. Obtaining nutrients in this manner is not only unhealthy, but also an inefficient utilization of energy and resources. Meat, for example, contains absolutely none of the beneficial fiber from the animal’s diet, and its protein level is too high. Likewise, when grass is “filtered” through a cow, most of its nitrogen is lost in its urine.

Bonsall explained that if you take grass that could go to feed a cow and instead put it directly into your compost pile, then you can get all the nitrogen you need, in addition to other nutrients not even found in manure. Using the grass yields more organic matter than manure, and subsequently more fertilizer. Tapping fertility at its source is simply a more efficient way to obtain nutrients.

Eliot Coleman, author of The New Organic Gardener (1996), has gardened organically for more than 40 years, the last 15 of which he has used veganic methods. He was given a grant in the early ’90s to experiment with supplying all the fertilizer needs of a commercial organic farm through composted plant-matter rather than animal manure. Through his research, Coleman determined the number of acres of hay needed to fertilize one acre of food crops. He found a one-to-one ratio of compost-producing ground to food-producing land, and this was in Maine, where the soil is rocky and relatively hard to work.

According to EarthSave International, if animal manure had been used instead of hay, then the space required to fertilize that one acre of garden would be approximateLy four times greater. This takes into account land needed for grazing and crops for animals. Overgrazing has led to erosion and the creation of deserts throughout the world. The World Watch Institute reported that each pound of feedlot steak “costs” about 35 pounds of eroded American topsoit. And what about all of that land needed to grow crops for the animals? The huge amounts of chemical fertilizers and pesticides used in the production of animal feed crops end up in surface and ground waters.

Accordingly, organic growers who rely on cows for fertilizer require much more land than those who use veganics. And as the human population increases, dependence on animals for food will result in more forests being cleared and wildlife habitats destroyed in order to create yet more room for grazing and crops for animals. Already, more than 25 percent of Central American rainforests have been destroyed in order to create pasture Land for cattle.

There Are Even More Reasons To Go Veganic!

Coleman’s interest in veganics does not stem from vegetarianism, for he is not vegetarian. He maintains that his interest in veganics comes from the practicality of growing his own soil fertility as opposed to relying on an outside source for manure.

Manure from factory farms continues to be sold commercially, but it tends to be expensive due to the costs associated with treatment, packaging and transportation. It is ironic that manure can be costly in spite of its overabundance! Another reason for the high price of manure, says Scheps, is that the public perceives animal manure as a necessity which manifests itself in demand for the product.

According to Scheps, the growing interest in organic gardening and farming is likely to result in a rise in demand for “organic” manure. He believes that this demand may eventually exceed supply, and that it will no longer be available at the current organic / commercial markup price.

Balanced Soil, Healthy Plants

Taking an excessive amount of certain vitamin supplements can lead to an imbalance and increase susceptibility to disease. Likewise, many growers believe that applying an excess of any amenity – plant or animal based – can potentially result in a soil imbalance, leading to unhealthy plants and insect problems. Coleman and Scheps, while not being able to explain why, have found that veganic amendments do not result in the insect problems that typically plague the gardens of their (non-veganic) organic peers.

Homesteading pioneers Helen and Scott Nearing, best known their book Living the Good Life, gardened veganically for decades. Freya Dinshah, Vice President of the American Vegan Society, recalled a gardening class taught by Helen where an organic grower asked for suggestions on how to deal with insects. Helen was unable to provide an answer because in all her years of farming, she had never experienced the problem.

“Overfeeding the soil can be both wasteful and harmful,” wrote Australian veganic gardener and author of From Soil to Psyche, David Phillips, Ph.D., in a 1973 edition of Ahimsa magazine. “To Lay on a heavy thickness of … manure witl only do to the plant what an excess of food will do to the body – it will cause over-stimulated growth for a time, and then the imbalance witl result in pathological conditions.”

Scheps believes that gardeners have the choice to either enhance or control nature. People can control weeds, for example, by killing them with an herbicide. However, this chemical a destroys microorganisms in the soil, which eventually Leads to unhealthy plants that are more susceptible to disease. The alternative that he views as an enhancement of nature would be to use physical barriers to prevent weeds (i.e. mulching, weed mats, cover crop, solarizing the soil), remove the weed, or simply live with it.

Even gardens with balanced soil may have unwanted insects, but Scheps has found that in such gardens, predators of these insects eventually come. For instance, aphids left alone eventually attract ladybugs which eat them. Unwanted insects may even become beneficial, said Scheps. For example, the parsley worm feeds on parsley leaves, but after the larva turns into the black swallowtail butterfly, it pollinates plants.

Likewise, food grown in balanced soil will not necessarily be blemish free. Scheps believes that the issue is a question of economic damage, and he points out that everyone has a different threshold for imperfection. A home gardener might not mind a few little holes in a leaf of lettuce, but a commercial grower is likely to view that same lettuce as unacceptable for commercial sale.

Scheps points out that rotating crops, cover cropping, non-monocultural practices, avoiding chemicals, and constantly adding organic matter are also critical components in a balanced garden.

Health Issues

The manure from most domestic animals harbors intestinal and parasitic diseases, and may contain antibiotic residues. According to the Centers for Disease Control, ruminant animals are known to harbor E.coli 0157:H7 in their intestines, and this can be transmitted to humans via their feces (see E.coli: New Concerns). Even proponents of manure fertilizers agree that especially raw manure poses a health threat, and they advise that it be handled cautiously.

In Deadly Feasts: Tracking the Secrets of a Terrifying New Plague, Pulitzer Prize-winning author Richard Rhodes (1993), describes how Bovine Spongiform Encephatopathy (BSE) may lead to Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) in humans via bone meal used in agricultural production of fruits, vegetables, and grains for human consumption.

Dr. Joseph Gibbs, the U.S. government’s chief researcher on BSE and CJD reported on the television news magazine Dateline (3-14-97) that the few people he’s known personally who’ve died of CJD had one unusual thing in common – they all used bone meal. He pointed out that a relationship between bone meal and CJD, however, has not been scientifically validated.

Even though it has not been proven that bone meal is a health threat, The Royal Horticulture Society in Britain now recommends that gardeners wear masks white using this product. In the U.S., the rendering industry (which makes bone meal) has declared the product safe for use.

The Future of Veganics

“The greatest drawback in veganic agriculture today,” said Bonsall, ‘is that it is hard to find information on the subject.” Gardeners are growing veganically all over the world (many of them not even aware of the term!), but there appears to be a tack of communication between these people. English author Geoffrey Rudd coined the term “veganic” almost 50 years ago, and the method was popularized by Rosa DaLzieL O’Brien in the ’40s. Both O’Brien and her son have written books on veganics, but surprisingly, many growers using only plant-based fertilizers are unfamiliar with their works.

Many vegetarians who grow vegetables in their backyard gardens are probably already using veganic methods. It is just about impossible to locate such produce in supermarkets, however, and this is likely the case all over the world. Pauline Lloyd is entering her third season as a veganic gardener in Great Britain, and she said that although organic produce is readily available in her community, the people she knows who grow veganic food do so only for their own use.

Twenty years ago it was hard to find organic produce and vegan shampoo, but these items are now readily available because as the demand increased, the market responded. There are probably some organic farmers who are already growing veganically, although they may not be advertising their produce as such. If these growers start advertising their food as organic/veganic, then it will help stimulate consumer discussion, and result in a demand. Good things are worth working for, and if we not only practice but also educate, then we may someday find kale and cucumbers in the grocery store labeled “V” for veganic.


Another Vegan Thread
(Bob M) #2

Not even sure where to start. Maybe read this book?

Animals are vital to the soil.


(Windmill Tilter) #3

Is It Time For A Plant-Based Agriculture?

Of course it is. We grow plants, then animals eat the plants and turn them into delicious meat for us to enjoy. Whether the nitrogen is from Haber-Bosch NH3, manure, or biomass, it’s the final product that’s really of keen interest to me.

The post was pretty long so I mostly skimmed towards the end. Does your version end with us eating steak and bacon or no? Is there a flavor difference in the meat when livestock is fed veganic fertilized food sources?

I find grass-fed beef less tasty than grain-fed, so if veganic fertilizer improves upon traditional grass-fed, I think you’ll find ready customers for your proposal. Although I prefer grain fed beef, I’d spend a little more if the flavor was superior.


(Brandy) #4

Great book. Regenerative farming is the right answer to all of our woes, regardless of what we individually choose to put in our pie holes.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #5

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(Full Metal KETO AF) #6

As a Carnivore it’s my personal mission to help end stage vegans find their way to health through a red meat carnivore diet. There is hope we can save them, one at a time through grassroots healthy beef eating in our communities. :cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::cut_of_meat::wink:

REAL FOOD FOR REAL PEOPLE :cowboy_hat_face:


(Keto Koala 🐨) #7

Omg David, I’m dying!!! :joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:. One of the best posts I’ve ever seen!!


(Polly) #8

No I do not think it is time for a plant based agriculture. You should watch this talk by Allan Savory

Your proposal to stop incorporating the manure of ruminants into the topsoil is an experiment which if adopted on a wider scale might risk the sort of desertification witnessed when grazing animals were restricted from accessing land because of fears of overgrazing. Real soil is alive with organisms as well as fungi and rotting plant material. Thinking that we know better than nature and can do a better job by holding some moral high ground is in my opinion a recipe for disaster. Let us do things as closely as possible to the natural way and then we stand a chance of handing on the planet to future generations in a fully functioning condition.

I do not know why you feel that you need to “educate” members of a ketogenic forum. You obviously realise that many of us eat more meat and fish than plant based foods. We do this because it is the thing which we have found which works for us. I do not go onto vegan forums and tell them that they are a bunch of pasty-faced losers who are damaging their own health and that of the planet. I might or might not hold that view privately, but it would not be polite to express it in a vegan environment. I do not even go on to vegan and vegetarian forums with information about how I have seen publications which support my view that grazing ruminants are essential to preserve the topsoil of the planet. You probably disagree with this opinion @london2z which you are entitled to do.

Why do you plague us with your opinions?


#9

I said a while back where this was going with this guy. I think I was right all along.


(Jack Bennett) #10

I guess popular crops like wheat, soy, corn, rapeseed don’t count as “plant-based agriculture?”

Because they have been a significant part of the agricultural economy for many decades.


(Windmill Tilter) #11

This is the only word I need to read in order to know that whatever follows will be a startling exercise in bullshit and self delusion.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #12

“Plant-Based Agriculture” is an oxymoron. Agriculture means cultivation of plants. Animal husbandry developed in parallel. Until the vege/vegan nonsense it was accepted as a given that animals and particularly ruminants are necessary for a healthy environment. I am descended from generations of small scale, family farmers on both sides of my family. Pasturing cows and horses on fallow fields was the common practice to maintain the fertility of those fields.

Archaeological data indicates that the domestication of various types of plants and animals happened in separate locations worldwide, starting in the geological epoch of the Holocene around 12,500 years ago.[#] It was the world’s first historically verifiable revolution in agriculture. The Neolithic Revolution greatly narrowed the diversity of foods available, resulting in a downturn in the quality of human nutrition.[#]

For an excellent overview, with more than 100 additional citations:


(Jack Bennett) #13

Hey, come on. We all eat a plant based diet. :grinning:

The chickens eat grain and bugs and lay eggs or yield up their bodies. The cows eat grass and grain and deliver beef or milk (not at the same time). It all originates from plants! :laughing::seedling:


(Full Metal KETO AF) #14

@london2z John you need to read this and give yourself a reality check and stop being a vegan troll here. Seriously you should read this short article so you truly understand what you preach is a total myth that leads to disease and a bad death. :skull_and_crossbones::skull_and_crossbones::skull_and_crossbones::skull_and_crossbones::skull_and_crossbones:

:seedling::ear_of_rice: versus :cut_of_meat:

The Vegan Vegetarian Myth

Written by an ex vegan who found his way back. :cowboy_hat_face:


#15

This group is a pushy bunch of people. I don’t go on a vegan forum to tell people to eat meat. If I want to research veganism then I don’t want to find it on a ketogenic forum. Mods need to throw this guy off. He isn’t here for discussion, he is here to promote his cause. Brings nothing to this forum.


(Windmill Tilter) #16

To be honest, it doesn’t really bother me that much. It’s good to see a variety of points of view. Some make more sense than others. People are pretty good a spotting BS when they see it.

Ironically, the BS above is literally that bull shit is not a good crop fertilizer, in contradiction of thousands of years of it’s actual use for that purpose. The post above is so full of it, it could grow tomatoes the size of watermelons! :yum:

I think it’s instructive for people to see the level of self delusion necessary for true religious level veganism of the sort that sends folks proselytizing out in the interwebs.


#17

Ah John, congratulations you started a topic. And you’ve come out from the camouflage? Are you a really, really a vegan activist? As suggested in accusations above. Or are you becoming one?
Plenty of vegetarian and some vegan ketogenic eaters on the forum and they will like to read about veganics. Nice label.

I’ve talked about it with my vegan friends and it does come down to feeding microorganisms. That is in our own gut or in the soil.

I hope your reading is balanced by reconciling this information with books like The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith? (https://www.lierrekeith.com/)

Crikey! :cow2: :boom:

Those factory farms are dangerous.

As read above, many of us agree with the vegan activists, who are taking a disruptive lead, that industrialised animal husbandry has its problems and that the ruminants need to be on the grasslands improving the soil and water quality as a major part of their life.

Seems fair enough. The benefit of dairy breeds is that we can get animal products from the milk without killing the dairy cow until the end of her productive life. That’s value adding to the beef cattle production life cycle.

Nice one. Unsubstantiated superiority claim. Butter, except for people following a carnivorous diet, it’s a pretty safe claim to make. A large percentage of human diets are plant based… Or do they mean “PLANT-BASED!” (shouty vegan activist diet)? Taking in the gist of the sermon, it looks like the latter.

Excellent appeal to magic and insect plague. But then the article continues without even a guess at the mechanism for an observed insect-proof growing system treating the “we don’t know” claim as evidence of something real. Once upon a time things were observed, mechanisms postulated, experiments designed and ideas tested. Then data was allowed to speak without too much human ideological interference.

That said, it is an article that appeals to hope as much as fantasy. Lovely storytelling that will trump facts.

I garden veganically, it’s called gardening using composting. Sometimes I add manures, particularly cow poo from a local beef cattle farm where I know the farmers and how they grow their animals and their farm soils. It’s still called gardening. Ominiganical gardening. When I add the manure to selected plants they grow better and are more productive (fruits mainly) as compared to just using veganic compost. The abundance is shared with insects and birds and permacultural principles keep the insect plagues at bay without chemicals and pesticides. I’d postulate that may be a probable mechanism in the veganics system. Mechanistically I reckon that increased food abundance could be because some nutrients are available in a more bioavailable form for the soil microbiome and it’s symbiosis with the plant. Bio-availability, we must discuss. These are just observations and thought meanderings.

Good post. But it seems you planted it like a bomb. It’s labelled ‘conversationstarter’ but you haven’t returned to discuss it.(yet).


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

All right, folks, the troll has been dealt with, but please feel free to continue posting rebuttals of this guy’s points. That is a valuable service you can perform for anyone who comes across this thread. Remember that the Dudes’ primary dogma is “Show me the science,” and the primary purpose of these forums is to provide that science to the world.

Going forward, the admin staff would like to ask people to refrain from flagging posts simply because they are wrong. The proper response to incorrect information is to provide correct information, if you can do so. If you cannot provide the correct information, it is fine to simply ignore the post or the entire thread; someone else will pick up the slack.

Please flag only posts that violate our Community Guidelines in some way. That is an appropriate use of the flagging system.


(Bob M) #19

Let’s think logically for a second. When settlers got to the US a few hundred years ago, there were 30-50-70 million buffalo. I see various numbers for this, but let’s just admit it was a lot. The grasslands were unbelievable, and we had FEET of topsoil. The vast majority of that topsoil is gone, mainly due to monocropping and lack of animals.

The Earth has always had animals. There is a symbiotic relationship between animals and plants. People thought, for instance, that if we would only get rid of ruminants, grasses would grow lush. What happens if you get rid of ruminants? Grassland desertifies.

It just makes logical sense that grasslands need ruminants and vice versa. This is just the way it IS.

Anyway, I see all the time on Twitter vegans spouting off ridiculous, ludicrous pseudo-facts. For instance, saw one yesterday implying that all cattle needed to have B12 shots because they didn’t produce B12. A very short search shows this isn’t true (B12 is produced by the bacteria in the cows, which is where the cows get B12…not from shots).

Then an actual farmer chimed in saying she’d never given that shot to any of her animals, knew no one that ever had to give that shot to their animals, and in fact never even heard of the shot until the vegan brought it up.

I mean, I can understand the idea that killing animals is bad. I get that. But at least have clue when you’re spouting off nonsense to take a few minutes to determine whether it actually has a ray of hope of being true.


(charlie3) #20

I like having some dissenting opinions around. I didn’t attempt to read the long posts. When I’m deciding what to feed myself moral and political biases play no role. Half my calories come from plant foods, the other half from animal based foods. Animal based foods aren’t going anywhere for too many reasons to mention.