Great book. Regenerative farming is the right answer to all of our woes, regardless of what we individually choose to put in our pie holes.
Is It Time For A Plant-Based Agriculture?
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#6
As a Carnivore it’s my personal mission to help end stage vegans find their way to health through a red meat carnivore diet. There is hope we can save them, one at a time through grassroots healthy beef eating in our communities. 
REAL FOOD FOR REAL PEOPLE 
Polly1
(Polly)
#8
No I do not think it is time for a plant based agriculture. You should watch this talk by Allan Savory
Your proposal to stop incorporating the manure of ruminants into the topsoil is an experiment which if adopted on a wider scale might risk the sort of desertification witnessed when grazing animals were restricted from accessing land because of fears of overgrazing. Real soil is alive with organisms as well as fungi and rotting plant material. Thinking that we know better than nature and can do a better job by holding some moral high ground is in my opinion a recipe for disaster. Let us do things as closely as possible to the natural way and then we stand a chance of handing on the planet to future generations in a fully functioning condition.
I do not know why you feel that you need to “educate” members of a ketogenic forum. You obviously realise that many of us eat more meat and fish than plant based foods. We do this because it is the thing which we have found which works for us. I do not go onto vegan forums and tell them that they are a bunch of pasty-faced losers who are damaging their own health and that of the planet. I might or might not hold that view privately, but it would not be polite to express it in a vegan environment. I do not even go on to vegan and vegetarian forums with information about how I have seen publications which support my view that grazing ruminants are essential to preserve the topsoil of the planet. You probably disagree with this opinion @london2z which you are entitled to do.
Why do you plague us with your opinions?
ajbennett
(Jack Bennett)
#10
I guess popular crops like wheat, soy, corn, rapeseed don’t count as “plant-based agriculture?”
Because they have been a significant part of the agricultural economy for many decades.
Don_Q
(Windmill Tilter)
#11
This is the only word I need to read in order to know that whatever follows will be a startling exercise in bullshit and self delusion.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#12
“Plant-Based Agriculture” is an oxymoron. Agriculture means cultivation of plants. Animal husbandry developed in parallel. Until the vege/vegan nonsense it was accepted as a given that animals and particularly ruminants are necessary for a healthy environment. I am descended from generations of small scale, family farmers on both sides of my family. Pasturing cows and horses on fallow fields was the common practice to maintain the fertility of those fields.
Archaeological data indicates that the domestication of various types of plants and animals happened in separate locations worldwide, starting in the geological epoch of the Holocene around 12,500 years ago.[#] It was the world’s first historically verifiable revolution in agriculture. The Neolithic Revolution greatly narrowed the diversity of foods available, resulting in a downturn in the quality of human nutrition.[#]
For an excellent overview, with more than 100 additional citations:
ajbennett
(Jack Bennett)
#13
Hey, come on. We all eat a plant based diet. 
The chickens eat grain and bugs and lay eggs or yield up their bodies. The cows eat grass and grain and deliver beef or milk (not at the same time). It all originates from plants! 
David_Stilley
(Full Metal KETO AF)
#14
@london2z John you need to read this and give yourself a reality check and stop being a vegan troll here. Seriously you should read this short article so you truly understand what you preach is a total myth that leads to disease and a bad death. 
versus
Written by an ex vegan who found his way back.
Bobt
#15
This group is a pushy bunch of people. I don’t go on a vegan forum to tell people to eat meat. If I want to research veganism then I don’t want to find it on a ketogenic forum. Mods need to throw this guy off. He isn’t here for discussion, he is here to promote his cause. Brings nothing to this forum.
Don_Q
(Windmill Tilter)
#16
To be honest, it doesn’t really bother me that much. It’s good to see a variety of points of view. Some make more sense than others. People are pretty good a spotting BS when they see it.
Ironically, the BS above is literally that bull shit is not a good crop fertilizer, in contradiction of thousands of years of it’s actual use for that purpose. The post above is so full of it, it could grow tomatoes the size of watermelons! 
I think it’s instructive for people to see the level of self delusion necessary for true religious level veganism of the sort that sends folks proselytizing out in the interwebs.
FrankoBear
#17
Ah John, congratulations you started a topic. And you’ve come out from the camouflage? Are you a really, really a vegan activist? As suggested in accusations above. Or are you becoming one?
Plenty of vegetarian and some vegan ketogenic eaters on the forum and they will like to read about veganics. Nice label.
I’ve talked about it with my vegan friends and it does come down to feeding microorganisms. That is in our own gut or in the soil.
I hope your reading is balanced by reconciling this information with books like The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith? (https://www.lierrekeith.com/)
Crikey! 
Those factory farms are dangerous.
As read above, many of us agree with the vegan activists, who are taking a disruptive lead, that industrialised animal husbandry has its problems and that the ruminants need to be on the grasslands improving the soil and water quality as a major part of their life.
Seems fair enough. The benefit of dairy breeds is that we can get animal products from the milk without killing the dairy cow until the end of her productive life. That’s value adding to the beef cattle production life cycle.
Nice one. Unsubstantiated superiority claim. Butter, except for people following a carnivorous diet, it’s a pretty safe claim to make. A large percentage of human diets are plant based… Or do they mean “PLANT-BASED!” (shouty vegan activist diet)? Taking in the gist of the sermon, it looks like the latter.
Excellent appeal to magic and insect plague. But then the article continues without even a guess at the mechanism for an observed insect-proof growing system treating the “we don’t know” claim as evidence of something real. Once upon a time things were observed, mechanisms postulated, experiments designed and ideas tested. Then data was allowed to speak without too much human ideological interference.
That said, it is an article that appeals to hope as much as fantasy. Lovely storytelling that will trump facts.
I garden veganically, it’s called gardening using composting. Sometimes I add manures, particularly cow poo from a local beef cattle farm where I know the farmers and how they grow their animals and their farm soils. It’s still called gardening. Ominiganical gardening. When I add the manure to selected plants they grow better and are more productive (fruits mainly) as compared to just using veganic compost. The abundance is shared with insects and birds and permacultural principles keep the insect plagues at bay without chemicals and pesticides. I’d postulate that may be a probable mechanism in the veganics system. Mechanistically I reckon that increased food abundance could be because some nutrients are available in a more bioavailable form for the soil microbiome and it’s symbiosis with the plant. Bio-availability, we must discuss. These are just observations and thought meanderings.
Good post. But it seems you planted it like a bomb. It’s labelled ‘conversationstarter’ but you haven’t returned to discuss it.(yet).
PaulL
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing)
#18
All right, folks, the troll has been dealt with, but please feel free to continue posting rebuttals of this guy’s points. That is a valuable service you can perform for anyone who comes across this thread. Remember that the Dudes’ primary dogma is “Show me the science,” and the primary purpose of these forums is to provide that science to the world.
Going forward, the admin staff would like to ask people to refrain from flagging posts simply because they are wrong. The proper response to incorrect information is to provide correct information, if you can do so. If you cannot provide the correct information, it is fine to simply ignore the post or the entire thread; someone else will pick up the slack.
Please flag only posts that violate our Community Guidelines in some way. That is an appropriate use of the flagging system.
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#19
Let’s think logically for a second. When settlers got to the US a few hundred years ago, there were 30-50-70 million buffalo. I see various numbers for this, but let’s just admit it was a lot. The grasslands were unbelievable, and we had FEET of topsoil. The vast majority of that topsoil is gone, mainly due to monocropping and lack of animals.
The Earth has always had animals. There is a symbiotic relationship between animals and plants. People thought, for instance, that if we would only get rid of ruminants, grasses would grow lush. What happens if you get rid of ruminants? Grassland desertifies.
It just makes logical sense that grasslands need ruminants and vice versa. This is just the way it IS.
Anyway, I see all the time on Twitter vegans spouting off ridiculous, ludicrous pseudo-facts. For instance, saw one yesterday implying that all cattle needed to have B12 shots because they didn’t produce B12. A very short search shows this isn’t true (B12 is produced by the bacteria in the cows, which is where the cows get B12…not from shots).
Then an actual farmer chimed in saying she’d never given that shot to any of her animals, knew no one that ever had to give that shot to their animals, and in fact never even heard of the shot until the vegan brought it up.
I mean, I can understand the idea that killing animals is bad. I get that. But at least have clue when you’re spouting off nonsense to take a few minutes to determine whether it actually has a ray of hope of being true.
charlie3
(charlie3)
#20
I like having some dissenting opinions around. I didn’t attempt to read the long posts. When I’m deciding what to feed myself moral and political biases play no role. Half my calories come from plant foods, the other half from animal based foods. Animal based foods aren’t going anywhere for too many reasons to mention.
240lbfatloss
(Ken)
#21
Well, If you’re using that type of logic, you’d have to say we eat a Sunlight based diet. (Which we do)
FrankoBear
#22
I have looked further into veganics and the simple answer is that it looks like a re-branding of gardening and composting.
Like all the action that happens in our gut, and inside cattle that turns BS into a resource, and in compost piles, the biological activity comes down to the release of entropic energy and micronutrient recycling activity of a microbiota, a microscioic universe.
Veganics will work but the compost will be more effective for plant growth if it has a wide variety of nutrients, including manure and bits of animals like egg shells. there will be insects and erthworms in a veganics system as plant material composts down, so the vegans are exploiting the ‘toil’ of animals, and some may die in the process, even though the animal does not know it is working (it’s worming).
