Is it possible that the ketogenic diet should be sporadic for optimal health?

#18

:smile:

#19

Excellent!

(Keto in Katy) #20

For what it’s worth, I am 55 and have been keto four years, never felt better in my adult life. My story is not at all unique.

#21

@stacy

Thank you that helps!

(Karen Fricke) #22

Keep in mind, the seasonal fruits and vegetables our ancestors had were not like we have now. They have been bred to be bigger and sweeter, ancestors may have remained in ketosis even eating them

(VLC.MD) #23

Amen !

#24

@kcfricke

Interesting! Thanks for sharing that, I hadn’t considered it before. I imagine this applies to many fruits and vegetables. However, we know that Native Americans were eating plant tubers that were carbohydrate rich as well as moderately carby acorns, among other carby foods, before colonization, and so we can assume that ancient peoples ate similar foods. So I agree that they would have been in ketosis more often due to the lack of foods bred to be sweeter but I’ll add that they still likely dipped out of ketosis when they found tubers, acorns and similar foods.

(Varda Meyers Epstein) #25

I had a cardiologist who told me I should keto for three weeks, then go off for one week a month, or I will develop a cardiomyopathy. I went home, studied the issue, and found a podcast with Jimmy Moore interviewing a doctor on the subject, who said that the cardiomyopathy problem only develops with keto if there is a selenium deficiency. This can be solved by eating a single brazil nut daily.

I tried to tell my cardiologist, but he wouldn’t listen.

The advice of three weeks on, one week off, seems horrendous to me. You’d just be getting over keto flu when you’d go off keto, and then have to restart and have keto flu again. I don’t know that you could stay in ketosis during the one week you’d be “off” the keto diet. (Which is why the cardiologist wanted a period of one week off.)

I hate going against a doctor, especially a cardiologist. But I’m so convinced he’s wrong. Still, since you asked and I see nothing about the cardiomyopathy thing on this thread, I felt obliged to mention it.

(KB Keto) #26

This is a great philosophical ketogenic question. I’ve toiled with this since I completed my participation in a keto study. I love eating keto, I love feeling this way, but I also love to debate with myself and of course; n=1.

In my mind, I’ve toiled with the seasonality of foods and thought, would it be beneficial at all to eat a few of certain fruits or vegetables that are in season that arent typically keto. While I do 100% agree with the fact that fruits and vegetables are, for the most part, far different from what they were when our ancestors would eat them seasonally… they are our only options (even our ‘heirloom’ fruits and veges have been changed by cross-breeding,etc over the time - which is why I hate the GMO scare tactics being spread).

I’ve also debated the benefit of some tubers or the occasional fruit… much like others have said, if our ancestors would have come across these while out, they would have 100% ate them.

As for the keto for 3 weeks or certain periods and non-keto for a week or day or whatever… I saw a study in Tampa where they had participants doing keto for a week and 1 day on the weekend eat high carb vs those who did not cheat on the weekends. Those who ate 1 day of carbs saw less athletic performance increase than those who remained on the keto diet. This study alone made me rethink the idea of TKD/CKD. The traditional dogma was that it would improve performance (and ketogains continues to propagate the myth), but the science just didnt back it … again, tho - if you’re a ketogains fan, n=1; have at it.

I will be experimenting with some protein powder here soon and maybe some seasonal eating in the future. Until then, I’ll just have my occasional situational non-keto events that pop up in life, enjoy them, and move on.

The beauty of finding and becoming a keto eater is that we have these options. I hope my long post didnt turn off some from reading it. lol.

(Also - glad to be back on the forum - had been away for a bit - just busy life, not a keto quitter)

#27

Welcome back and thanks for the post. I have never heard that about cardiomyopathy and will check my multivitamin for selenium content! Can you share anything about the results from the study you participated in?

#28

I just saw something similar to what @KBDelight said: a mention in Mark Sisson’s new book of a study that hasn’t yet been published that had folks keto during the week and I think 2 days of non-keto (I don’t know exactly what that entailed). Compared to the full-time keto folks, the cycling folks did much worse - added fat, lost muscle. Finding that you continue to thrive even if you add in some more carbs here and there is probably quite different than deliberately throwing yourself out of ketosis on a regular basis.

(KB Keto) #29

The gist of the study is here: KB's KETO Diet Study

My results are: I lost 19lbs without the goal being to lose weight. My lifts all went up, some more than others. I dont have the results of the muscle biopsy or blood test back yet so I cant share that.

Overall, I felt great during it. I was able to see the change from fat adapting to fat adapted as well. There was a distinct drop off in my blood ketone numbers as I became fat adapted vs the high numbers I was achieving while adapting. The body just becomes much more efficient at producing the right amount and using the right amount of ketones that the higher numbers are no longer necessary.

When I do get all my results, I will share them.

I also participated in another study that was much shorter using exogenous ketones. I dont know which test had the ketones and which didnt but my initial guess results in: exogenous ketones made initial effort feel easier but I had a significant decrease in power work at the end than vs the non-exogenous ketones portion… this can’t be confirmed at this point in time, but thats my hypothesis — ill let the sciency people let me know if I guessed right.

(Mel Soule) #30

Well said. Old Johnny Applesead was not about planting eating apples, they were cider apples for fermenting. Ancestral fruits including grapes were better for fermenting (to create safe drinking water really) than eating.

(Karen Fricke) #31

If someone doesn’t handle alcohol well we don’t suggest they cycle, so if I don’t handle carbs well, I’m not going to cycle. Eating carbs isn’t necessary, your body can make what you need from fat and excess protein

(VLC.MD) #32

He might be vaguely warning you for his own protection.
If you have problems, he can say he warned you.
Understand the other chair.

Source ?

It is definitely unhelpful advice.

I’d get my Cardiology advice from a Cardiologist.
Doctors aren’t Nutrition Experts, believe me.
Get your nutrition advice from experts.
Remember, what you put in your mouth is your responsibility and right.

He’s probably worried about DKA and CM. [link]
Teach him that nutritional ketosis isn’t DKA ! I’m sure he understands dose-response relationships, a fundamental concept in medicine.

(Varda Meyers Epstein) #33

Source: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/keto-talk-episode-28-cardiomyopathy-nusi-hall-study-diet-soda-insomnia-high-blood-pressure-on-keto/26489

This cardiologist happens to be a family friend. I do not get the impression he’s trying to cover butt.

Thanks for the link, but I checked and he knows the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. When I press him about the cardiomyopathy thing, he tells me he reads all the latest journals and knows better than I do what’s what, which is super annoying. But he has a point.

(Karen Fricke) #34

There are a number of us that have stayed keto over months or years, I haven’t seen even one comment of cardiomyopathy. The heart works better on ketones than glucose, so I don’t see where ketones would cause heart damage.

(bertha) #35

i’m new to this keto diet (19 days) to lose some weight, but gladly to say that i’ve never been feeling so much healthy and committed to this diet. trying the keto with fasting for 16 - 20 hours, and already lost 4kg which is never happened before with other diet that i’ve tried before. so yeah, i guess i will stick to this diet until i get my ideal weight.

this is also been my concern, whether it is good for my body to be still on keto. but i once skip the keto when i’m on vacation for 3 days, and surprisingly it doesn’t affect my weight. so maybe i will continue with low carb diet after i reached my ideal weight.

(Mel Soule) #36

Agree. There are essential fatty acids, amino acids and micros. No essential carbs.

(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #37

Exactly Karen! The latest 2KetoDudes podcast with the Brenda Zorn and Tom Seest interviews, Tom’s heart scarring from pneumonia has healed and he attributes it to fasting living off of ketones.