Is it possible that the ketogenic diet should be sporadic for optimal health?

#1

I am looking at all of the questions asked by researchers on the long term effects of the diets and the fact that most are unanswered and call for further research.

In ancient times, our ancestors (especially and definitely pre agriculture) would have been in and out of ketosis every few days or at least a couple times a month in the winter in non tropical climates.

So the most natural metabolic states would be either zero ketosis as our ancestors in tropical climates likely lived, or sporadic ketosis as our ancestors in every other climate in the world likely lived.

However it is unlikely that any significant amount of our ancestors lived in ketosis at all times for many years at a time or their whole lives.

Therefore, should we limit time in ketosis to the most realistic assumption about our ancestors which would be all winter and stay in for a maximum of three months or so?

(Adam Kirby) #2

In a metabolically healthy population, you are completely correct, year-round ketosis shouldn’t be the goal and might not even be optimal. It certainly isn’t the way most of our ancestors ate… intentional insulin resistance in the summer and fall gets you through the winter! But we have to ask ourselves, what is the best approach for the singular health crisis that we have? People are in terrible metabolic states that our ancestors never were. Maybe adding in carbs isn’t the best approach for the metabolically broken while they are healing their bodies. Or maybe it is? I have no idea.

(Ernest) #3

One would need to fix the current metabolic issues, get back to a healthy state and then decide whether to do seasonal eating habits.
Will power will play a role either way.
But we are not living in the same environment as our ancestors did. They had no HFCS, questionable pesticides, industrial wastes messing up the soil etc.
I bet you strawberries back then are not the same as strawberries today.

#4

I find this a very interesting question and agree with Adam and Ernest: maybe fluctuations are ideal in theory, but there are many factors that are different now in terms of food (and lifestyle!). Even Mark Sisson, who’s basically advocating distinct times of focused ketosis, is also a proponent of LC ancestral eating in general - so that berries and maybe some tubers would be part of the flow of things but not grains or sugar or (ack!!) HFCS - and also appropriate activity, connection with our family and friends, and good sleep etc so that all the pieces are in place to support metabolic health.

And even he suggests that if your metabolism is in very bad shape, long term ketogenic eating is likely the best path.

(Keto in Katy) #5

Ultimately, we are all an experiment of one. I feel the best approach is to find the eating plan that heals and corrects any metabolic issues (if you have them), and then continue to adjust the diet until it feels optimal to you.

It could be that the protein and fat amounts might need some tweaking, even having some carbs could be fine, especially if you are physically very active. I have been keto four years now, and I have a little rice or potatoes once in a while and tolerate it very well. But that will not be true for everyone.

(Ken) #6

It’s really a question of adaptation. Once you’ve eliminated all detrimental hormonal resistance states and achieved a normal insulin-glucagon balance, you have many options. It’s actually pretty tough to adapt back into a detrimental lipogeninc, insulin based secretion pattern unless you go back to the NAD. In order for the detrimental adaptions to occur, you have to chronically overcompensate glycogen. You can eat carbs, but in types, amounts, and frequencies that don’t cause readaptation. This is subject to genetics, as to how fast you develop leptin resistance. It’s this aspect and lack of knowledge that caused many who tried Atkins to regain weight, as they went back to their old, chronically lipogenic habits

The best way, IMO, is to consider lipolysis/keto/paleo to be your Baseline, with Carb intake being the exception, or abberation of your normal nutritional pattern. You really can eat quite a few, I’ve gone a full ten days without weight gain.

If desiring to experiment, remember, it’s glycogen recompensation that starts the readaptation process. If you know how much you hold, you can use that as a guide. If you don’t get to overcompensation, you won’t gain fat.

(KetoCowboy) #7

I didn’t touch legumes en route to my goal girth of 36".

Then I relaxed a bit and allowed myself a serving or two of hummus or refried beans each week.

My weight hasn’t changed. But my waist is now under 35".

If I had postponed going keto, I suspect I would have done too much metabolic damage to tolerate even small quantities of legumes.

#8

@240lbfatloss

Thank you. What is “NAD”?

(VLC.MD) #9

Q: Is it possible that the ketogenic diet should be sporadic for optimal health?
A: Definitely.

I see it as a weight loss tool so far.

(Ken) #10

NAD is “Normal American Diet”, approx. a 60/20/20% Carb-Protein-Fat macro. Same as SAD (standard), or TAD (typical), etc. The typical carb-based, lipogenic nutritional pattern.

(VLC.MD) #11

NADs are a TAD SAD (aka depression from carbage toxicity)

#12

@VLC.MD

Could you elaborate please?

(VLC.MD) #13

@Fry - use Keto to get to your goals. Then consider LCHF, say 20-50g of good carbs a day. If you gain weight, increase your blood pressure. … restart Keto. Are you at your goal weight now ?

I will say this … I think you lost alot of weight on Keto.
The old Fry won’t live as long as the better weight Fry … even if ketosis is “bad” for you (which it likely isnt). Dietary studies correct for weight because of obesity’s significant impact on health.

KCKO.

#14

@VLC.MD

Aw that made me smile lol! I am the better Fry!

Yeah I had chronic hypoglycemia and was 40 pounds heavier. My doctors just said “Whenever you feel hypoglycemic, just eat.”

This lead to the problem just getting worse and worse and I kept gaining weight. I had to eat more and more often to off set the symptoms. This was the standard medical answer!

Enter ketosis and doing my own research while completely ignoring my doctors terrible advice and I lost all the weight and now only have very minor hypoglycemia and only sometimes, usually near meal times (which is fairly normal) and sometimes not at all. I eat three meals a day strictly and feel fine or sometimes even feel fantastic, whereas I was eating EIGHT meals a day and only felt fine right after eating and sometimes not even then. I would wake up with low blood sugar in the middle of the night and eat! Now I sleep through the night.

This is why I am so hung up on making sure keto is a reasonable thing to stick to: I do not want to have it be a thing that gets deemed unhealthy and have to completely quit.

I have also found that when I am eating the Standard American Diet when I have fallen off the keto wagon I still do not have hypoglycemic issues! It seems like I have significantly healed my body.

(bulkbiker) #15

There is only one person who can make that decision and that is you…
If you think that a way of eating that has helped you with your condition and assisted in weight loss is bad for you then…

(VLC.MD) #16

So keto saved you ?
40 lbs ?
Dropping 40 lbs adds 7 years to your life.
You should be kneeling at the altar of keto !

You need to read this book.
image
you are ready.

During the next 2 years of your low carb life, you’ll have plenty of time to slowly gather more information.
It would be illogical to think that LCHF / low carb / periodic keto for 2 more years would cause any harm. So take a deep breath and relax. The big risk to you should be obvious. Anyone that has 40 lbs to lose was in big trouble. The big risk to you isn’t a bit of ketosis … it’s going to WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN.

KCKO.

#17

@VLC.MD

Thanks so much. I will grab it from the library this week! I am also reading “The Great Cholesterol Myth” which I picked up earlier this week, it was recommended to me by another user, and hope that these two books together will give me some confidence!

#18

:smile:

#19

Excellent!

(Keto in Katy) #20

For what it’s worth, I am 55 and have been keto four years, never felt better in my adult life. My story is not at all unique.