Is It Over?

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(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #64

That’s because they are restricting calories, not eating to satiety. Dr. Phinney’s research has demonstrated that, once people’s insulin level drops and insulin stops interfering with the satiety hormones, people on a ketogenic diet with excess fat to shed naturally eat a level that allows some of that excess to be metabolised. The low insulin is the prerequisite for allowing fatty acids to be released from the adipose tissue, and the adequate food intake signals to the body that shedding some excess fat is safe to do. Interestingly, fasting doesn’t seem to trigger the famine reflex the way restricting calories does.

#65

But those are special people, they probably can’t eat to satiation and losing fat anyway but that wasn’t my point. Their body responds to a little energy deficit with metabolism slowing and it continues to a surprisingly low energy intake, very much unlike in normal cases. The body “successfully” uses only the available energy from food so all the deficit disappears, it’s insane but I heard it from people whom I trust as well, I am sure they didn’t lie.

I only focused on the deficit here as satiation is a complicated thing. We know that people with much extra bodyfat doesn’t necessarily lose any fat on keto, many of us need extra efforts, tricks and lots of patience. The reasons vary but some people just want to get satiated with their food and it doesn’t work. No wonder, satiation isn’t same for everyone, some people maybe don’t even notice if they are satiated or not, wrong choices mess it up… Lots of keto food almost guarantees I won’t lose any fat due to making me hungry and even a big amount of my top satiating food can’t balance it out. As I don’t have a magical body, mine clings to my fat reserves if I eat at maintenance level or higher, it’s pretty logical to me. I am no good example for various reasons and I don’t know enough of others but we see in this forum that just eating to satiation doesn’t work for everyone, some people need to be super patient and extremely strict to get some tiny success and maybe even that won’t happen.

I kinda believe most of us have a woe that gives easy enough success but finding that may took many years, efforts and sometimes a tiny miracle. Ketosis just isn’t enough for much for some of us. But it easily may be the first step. Or the second, my first step was low-carb (way more successful than keto but I wasn’t the same person when I went keto).

#66

DANG! :scream_cat:
‘Under the bus’ mean anything to ya? :crazy_face::skull_and_crossbones::upside_down_face:
too funny!!

I knew that comment was not geared at all to the original poster from Ifod as an accusation or anything like that.

I agreed just like you that 99.9% of the time that statement is full truth but I didn’t apply it to the poster at all. I think we all just agreed it holds big value alot of times, but not to this person.

you had me laughing when I read your post tho! :astonished::clown_face:

alot of good info on the thread, good read happening.

(Mg ) #67

Be true to thyself. Not everyone is capable. I’m fierce and capable. However there are just some things that don’t come naturally. I did extremly well on my own run. I was up to a size 27 at five foot three,
I’m now a size 11. I take my sizes in twos… Womens clothing is typically (11-12/ 22-24/ etc …)Looking to drop to a healthy 9. Whatever I did, worked.
My entire point was to perhaps see that’s it isn’t just one, but many who suffer through this last 20-30 pound stoppage.

It’s brutal. It always feels better when others who worked so hard, and get stuck, know… They aren’t alone.
I don’t think anything is more important.
Pushing through no matter how difficult (which I most certainly will, no question )
Is what creates character, and strong will to do anything.
Not just lose weight, fat, inches etc…

It’s a really good thing. Difficult isn’t always bad. :wink:

(Edith) #68

I belong to carnivore forum. One of the moderators has been carnivore for something like 11 years. Someone on the forum wanted to know if carnivore was anti-aging. The moderator posted a picture of herself before she went carnivore and then another picture of herself ten years later. She certainly looked younger and healthier in the recent picture than she did when she was over weight. Then she said, she needed to take another picture because she had recently lost ten more pounds. She lost ten more pounds after ten years on carnivore. I have a feeling she actually didn’t do much different, but the weight came off.

I guess my point it that one of the benefits of the ketogenic diet is healing. If you are middle aged or older, then you have many years of eating the standard American diet to undo. It took many years for the damage to be done. It is going to take more than a few months to undo the damage, and maybe even years. Maybe you just need to stay the course and over time, heal and your weight loss with start to go down.

#69

@VirginiaEdie ---- Time on any healthy eating plan like very low carb, keto etc. and even into zc is required by all of us! every human on the planet but thing is commitment and time and that is a hard combo to deal with personally for each of us but if ya got that gumption, oh heck ya you win this battle!!

I know one thing every older veteran on plan said to me when I started was Keep the Faith your healthy eating plan will heal and change you but TIME is the most important factor…and oh yea it is! Loved your post VE!!

(KCKO, KCFO) #70

Agreed. So easy to forget it isn’t about the weight loss. That might bring you to keto/lchf WOE, but the metabolic normalization is what will keep you there. Your body gets to do a lot of healing.

#71

Hello :wave:t2:
I’m rarely here on this forum, I still feel like a newbie.
You asked Is it over? Only if you want it to be and give up?
My story-> I’m 61 now, but back in October 2018 I went for a checkup which scared the “beep” out of me! I was 326, my doctor was shocked at my BP, said my sugar was up and I was staring down the barrel of borderline diabetic. He raised my BP med dose, gave me a warning about my sugar. Basically just for the first time seemed really worried about me.
Well after that I said to myself, my dear you are going to be dead one of these days. I proclaimed I was going to diet. I went looking at diets, I had done them all including Atkins and it worked. But at that time I had 2 little kids. No time for dieting so I thought.
So in December of 2018 I saw a post on Facebook about Keto cookies. Cookies? You can eat Cookies? My inner carb addict was happy to see that. I did research found doctor Ken Berry.
I’m going to fast forward here to January 2019 when my Keto journey began.
I started with cleaning out my pantry. Then got Keto foods and ended up in the ER 2 weeks later. Oh my, it was a shocker. I was dehydrated, got an IV and started makin Ketoaid per Dr. Berry’s video.
I did not quit Keto!
By the end of 2019 I had my meals perfected and I had lost 50lbs. I also lost inches off my body. I did not weigh myself, count carbs, macros or even care about ketosis. I wanted a diet I could live with, not have to figit and constantly worry with all the time. I just wanted to eat and live and enjoy life. I’ve successfully done that. I was in better health than I had been in 30 years. No more borderline diabetes, BP meds cut to the lowest dose. More energy and stamina than I could handle. Acid reflux disappeared.
That’s when the weight stopped coming off? Did I panic? No I did not. Did I eat less? No Did I suddenly start counting things? No I didn’t. Did I give up? Nope.
As so many Keto doctors have said, Keto is about healing as much as it’s about losing weight. My body was in bad shape, I mean physically, medically and even my mental state was questionable. I made up my mind I was going to go for the healing over the weight loss.
Over those last 2 years and heading into 2021 I have become comfortable in my way of doing keto. I follow low carb for the first year and moving into 2020 I slowly became carnivore. I haven’t been on a scale in a over year and won’t step on one. I have not weighed or measured food, used any app, kept up with macros and have no idea about ketosis? I still take my measurements and yes those are still dropping. I’m I’d say 95% carnivore now. Eat once a day most days and have a evening snack of jello for collagen. I have stayed away from any and mean all the Keto recipes. I do not eat faux anything except for my sugar free jello and My sweetener in my coffee. I eat red meat, poultry, fish, pork, eggs, berries occasionally, oh and nuts of course.
I can say losing slowly for me has worked tremendously. Also not following anyones Keto diet guide. Being relaxed, doing a no stressed Keto regimen. My body is healing, so is my skin, muscular ability’s, my skin is also tightening as my body reduces.
I’ve been questioned about my way of doing Keto. Which basically goes against all the so called Keto rules. But I didn’t want Keto to be a “thing” in my life. I just wanted to Keto silently and enjoy life.
But it’s just my opinion that stressing over macros or ketones or basically stressing period over anything Keto can’t be good for anyone.
But I think it’s important to be able to live with a way of eating. Be comfortable with it, relax and say this is my way of doing it and I’m okay with it.
I’m so much more healthy now, my anxiety is at its lowest. Of course the 2 pant sizes I lost and that ton of inches gone is great. Can’t get over I have actually muscular arms now and my legs can walk miles.
So I think it’s okay to relax and do Keto our way. If you don’t count macros or pee on a stick, it’s all good. I’m Keto for life whether I lose weight or not. The healing of my body has been like a miracle to me.

(Edith) #72

What a great testimonial!

#73

Yes. I have been using Keto on and off for over 10 years now. I see keto (IMHO) as a short-term (6-12 protocol) to address certain issues such as weight loss or type-2 diabetes. Short-term, the results are incredible for some and not others. However, I have found very little scientific research on the long-term effects of a high-fat diet. I believe there is a duality of being keto. Short-term great, long term maybe not. The long-term free radical stress and the increase in 4-HNE is probably not a good thing.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #74

Interesting. I thought it was continually burning glucose that caused free-radical stress. On a ketogenic diet, the body’s endogenous anti-oxidant defenses are activated and quench the reactive oxygen species. High insulin causes those defenses to be suppressed.

I’m also not clear on what you would consider long-term ketogenic eating. A lot of people have been eating this way for at least a decade with no deleterious effects and some pretty beneficial ones.

#75

I don’t understand the short term comment either? I intend to stay Keto until the day they put me in the ground. I’m too afraid to stop what’s been reversing all my health problems. My weight loss is slow yet I’m still losing inches. I know that will continue as my body continues to heal. Why stop something that’s so beneficial to good health? I don’t ever want to be as sick as I was before Keto. This Keto way of eating is extending my life by years. Where as before Keto I was looking at a death sentence.
I’m living a life I could only dream about before keto.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #76

Here we go again. Long term keto? What does anyone think our paleolithic/Pleistocene ancestors ate for 2 1/2 million years? Here’s an article I posted a week ago at Breakfast with Bubba:

The article is a rebuttal of claims that for the better part of 3/4 of a million years our Pleistocene ancestors ate roasted tubers and became fully human as a result of the increased digestible carbs. Because the human brain needs lots of glucose, doncha know. Apparently, the author of this nonsensical hypothesis actually used potatoes as an example. Potatoes! I suppose she went to her local supermarket and bought a bag of Idaho Russets, thinking they were typical spuds our ancestors would have eaten. Roasting them on a stick around the campfire.

The author of the linked rebuttal discusses a lot of problems with the claim, among which is the most obvious. Wild potatoes are native to South America (Peru and Bolivia mostly) and our Pleistocene ancestors could not possibly have eaten them 3/4 million years ago or even 20K years ago, roasted or otherwise. So any nutritional facts and/or suppositions based on potatoes is totally irrelevant to the evolution of human beings during the Pleistocene. By the way, Amber O’hearn addresses this same issue here.

I bring this up simply to point out a fallacy that many appear to share. That is the fallacy that Pleistocene flora was pretty much similar to Holocene flora. In other words, our ancestors didn’t have the convenience of a local market like we do. But, they could just wander through the local orchard or meadow and bring home the same luscious fruits and veggies. Well, no they couldn’t! The luscious fruits and veggies we know today did not exist.

Our ancestors ate mostly fat and meat, in that order. Aside from a very few seasonal items like nuts and berries, plants were mostly indigestible cellulose and totally inedible. Try a salad of Kentucky Blue Grass to find out what that means. :crazy_face:

Our ancestors were in ketosis most of their lives, with possible short excursions when some particular berry or nut was in season, or someone found a honey tree. No scientific research on long term keto? I think there’s about 2 1/2 million years of it. On the other hand, the recent (7-8K years) carb-centric diet doesn’t seem to be working out very well.

What's up with carnivores eating berries and honey?
#77

Wow! Great rebuttal on the long term of Keto. I hadn’t thought of the ancient ancestry diet in terms of Keto. But that is spot on in terms of how the ancestors diets were meat based.
I read a similar article years ago on eating things in season. The article said eating fruit in season was the way of our ancestors. They ate fruit during the warm seasons. Eating fruit during the warm season meant the people were more active. Hence they burned off any carbs found in the fruit. When the fruit was gone the people had to wait a year to enjoy it again. To me that makes perfect sense. In our society today, people are eating carbs every single day at every meal year round.
Keto is most definitely an excellent way of eating for long term. It’s as Doctor Ken Berry says The proper human diet

#78

I don’t think keto would be any bad long term if it suits someone short-term but I don’t even have many options as I feel better in various ways if I eat very little carbs. I trust my body and it complains if I eat much carbs (sometimes even if it’s little, it depends. it’s more sensitive to simple sugars especially alone) so I avoid them. It’s pretty simple. I do on/off keto anyway but I am more and more often quite low. Like, way below 10g carbs. It’s way better than just being in ketosis with much more carbs. As far as I know, my evolution should have taught my body what to do in the absence of carbs and yep, it seems so. My body always loved when I dropped my carbs to new depths. It was mentally good too, carbs mess with my behavior and it’s not even enjoyable. So I got a lot, I keep it. We will see what will happen but I refuse to believe my body suddenly will get unwell when I feed it properly… If it won’t like my woe for some reason, it will subtly tell me. But no, it usually wants almost no carbs, I only eat those for other reasons, not because I need them (at least I never felt that except as a newbie ketoer but I ate no meat back then and wasn’t used to very low-carb anyway).
Eating very low-carb feels natural and normal for me now. With some crazy days but those are horrible and contains lower and lower carbs as time passes. I just don’t desire most of my old favorite carbs anymore (and when I did, they still caused problems and sometimes disappointments). No way to bring those back for more than a short, modest visit, thankfully.

True. Even if I go out to the nearby forests nowadays, I will find only some wild blackberries and wild pears, it’s little, not sugary and I need to work for it. It’s nothing like sitting down to a bunch of modern bananas… I can find sugary fruits too but getting much sugar from rosehips isn’t that easy for a big mammal either (I don’t know why the birds don’t eat it. it’s very sweet and delicious to me. I eat one or two while walking as it’s not as comfortable to eat with its many hairy seeds. Cornelian cherry is tasty and abundant too but good luck to find the good ones - it’s hard for a long time, even when it’s already red then it drops to the ground and rots quickly. collecting some is a nightmare. or I don’t know how to do it - and it has huge seeds for the tiny fruit.)
Yeah, if it was an important source of food, I would put more effort into it but I still have problems with all the poetic fictional works where people just collects berries in the wild and get satiated with it (add mushrooms if you like, it still won’t be very believable). Nuts are better than all edible plants and most mushrooms are quite seasonal. Meat, especially fatty meat is a godsend… But where did our anchestors find enough fatty meat? If it wasn’t even the season or climate with fat animals who gained much bodyfat for winter? I never looked up these things…

#79

oh boy if you think your Keto is under attack, you should see the people who bash zero carb for long term and we got 15+ years people eating my plan and thriving and there is still that hmmm, it’s gonnna kill ya…well something will get us all at some point I guess. Our eating lifestyle might be blamed for it all still after all those years :crazy_face::roll_eyes:

#80

I hear this every time someone asked me what I’m doing. The minute Keto comes out of my mouth. The oh no that’s bad, it’s going to kill you, it’s not healthy to eat all that meat. Fruits so good for you.
I just :roll_eyes::roll_eyes: and walk away

#81

People are so odd. I never ever though keto would be bad. (Or carnivore, it only sounded extreme to me just like vegan keto.)
We can get the necessary nutrients, people proved it can be done, I don’t know why people cling to wrong beliefs… Oh well.

And keto has zillion styles. I didn’t even eat meat in the beginning and I eat little now (just for a little while, I bring them back. but now I love my eggs more than ever… the stupid myth disproved ages ago so don’t give me that anymore, world. and it’s eggs, not even a whole pig brain for every meal :D). Well, it’s easier, better and healthier with meat for me but now I can avoid overeating without, yay.
People are odd, I know I said that just before. How can they consider meat bad (even if the source is great)? It’s meat, pretty normal food for an omnivore like humans. Simple sugars and starches on piedestal, it’s weird. No matter how many people do that, it is.

(Mg ) #82

I have been doing it a long time and never had one side effect except from keto, just nauseam and sluggish.
But low carb is perfect for me.
Been doing blood panels for years! He will order them in an hour for me for my own personal use to gauge something,
I’m lucky…
And my blood panels have not only gotten better they have gotten phenomenal which is why my doctor has concluded it works!

I also beat hepatitis c and we watched the results not knowing what would or could happen.

I have not one flag. My doc says it’s pretty amazing considering my age. I’m 55. Gonna order another panel here shortly because I did something diffrent.
Low carb and low calorie.
Something I’ve not attempted.
I am curious what the results will be.

Everyone is a doctor. People who NEVER utilized the platform for a long time, know everything.
Heck I know a couple people who no longer require insulin!
It took them four years to become totally insulin free but they did it.

It works! I love it!

(KCKO, KCFO) #83

A big congrats on that one, I’ve had a couple of friends that had to do experimental drug tests to finally got rid of the HepC. That is a major health change, good for you