If an otherwise healthy keto individual gets Coronavirus, would increasing dietary carbs be beneficial to them?


(JJ) #41

No, it did not. I had no IV dextrose/glucose during my admission. I am a healthcare worker and obtained my medical records after I had recovered. I was treated in my local rural hospital until I was too unwell and then transferred to a larger hospital in a metropolitan area, incidentally that larger hospital is my workplace :slight_smile:
I was given 15lt total of IV fluids (!) consisting of; Hartmannā€™s, Normal Saline and had some KCL at two points point when my electrolytes were out. When I was awake and tolerating oral fluids, I was charted magmin for a few days until my levels were back to normal. I found it interesting that no-one really considered ketone levels and only performed a BGL on two occasions despite no nutritional intake, but as I said, they had bigger fish to fry.


(Ian) #42

Thank you, I am glad we cleared that up.

I was very clear to define the substance I was talking about, i.e. carbohydrates, at no time did I mention or imply plants.

I made no representation regarding the benefit or detriment of the myriad of other chemicals and substances found in plants.

Yes I understand that humans are classified as Omnivores. However, humans have very very acidic stomachs (pH 1.5-2.5) and therefore we are more carnivorous than herbivorous. This is also supported by the fact that humans have relatively small cecums, small colons and long small intestines, which indicates that we were evolved to eat meat, particularly scavenged meat, more than plant matter.


(Bunny) #43

And if we donā€™t like the phytic acid, lectins and oxalates we ferment, boil or steam our veggies or fruits, in which case if you boil your better off drinking the water they are boiled in my opinion. Besides our tainted produce chemicals, chemical fertilizers, ground soil trace element and mineral depletion.

Human beings are monogastric hind gut fermenters (not enough alkaline to process cellulose).

But what is so fascinating is that human meat eaters digest plant matter (phytanic acid) better than a fellow human vegetarian? ā€¦lol

You need phytanic acid to digest plant matter i.e. cellulose!

Amazing!

Footnotes:

[1] ā€œā€¦In a study conducted in Oxford, individuals who consumed meat had, on average, a 6.7-fold higher geometric mean plasma phytanic acid concentration than did vegans.[3] ā€¦ā€ ā€¦More


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #44

Any and everyone who doubts Bunnyā€™s elusive essential carbohydrate gets branded a member of pseudo-bro-science. Welcome, bro. Meanwhile in the real world, carbohydrates remain optional.


(Bunny) #45

I would go for accuracy of definitions not broad spectrum terminology?

Dietary sugars is not required to sustain human life.

Doubt has nothing to do with me it is an individual comprehension of terms. It is easy to distort other peopleā€™s perceptions by making carbs optional directly when all your essential nutrients come from carbohydrates?

You cannot get all your essential nutrients only from animal protein and fat and that is reality, so what your proposing in your choice of definitions is very dangerous at best.


#46

bottom line- we donā€™t know


(Ian) #47

Agreed, but you can make a good guess based on the preponderance of evidence.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #48

Probably not beneficial, because of (a) the systemic inflammation from elevated insulin levels caused by eating carbohydrates, (b) the immune system damage from elevated insulin levels caused by eating carbohydrates, and Ā© the fact that coronavirus seems to thrive on glucose, which is what carbohydrates are mostly composed of.

There seems to be a real need for people to find justifications for eating carbohydrate, when it is the one macronutrient that the body has no need of ingesting. The rationales that people come up with all sound to me like the sorts of justifications alcoholics who donā€™t want to get sober tend to come up with to show that total abstinence from alcohol is unhealthy.


#49

In relation to the corona virus there is some data at the mechanistic level.

There are glucose dependent proteins activated in the detrimental coping effects of the cells infected by the virus.

Drawing a long bow here: I, in my very own unique opinion, totally subjectively, correlate that science with the ā€˜cancer is a metabolicā€™ disease theory. That in a lower blood glucose available state, letā€™s call it nutritional ketosis, there is less available glucose and potentially less cellular and tissue destruction. Thus the response of the body is mitigated. The immune response, inflammation, inflammatory fluids and potential lung and pleural fibrosis are the components of concern in the lung pathology and survivability of a severe state of the disease. Iā€™ll note here that most people will experience standard cold or flu symptoms.

This is all conjecture. But my chest (c.f. gut feelings) feelings are that enacting a deeper state of nutritional ketosis, and a complementary low blood glucose steady state, would be of benefit when immune responding and eliminating the infection.

To answer the question posed by the thread title. I do not think increasing dietary carbohydrates would be of benefit.

ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4060729/


#50

@Knnn
What evidence? Thats the whole problem. Lots of conjecture. Little real evidence.


(joseph) #51

this, came out today.

that particular info in last 16 mijnutes? of live stream


(joseph) #52

(Doug) #53

As an American I think weā€™ve waited too long to really clamp down on things; so yeah, a lot of us are gonna get it - we havenā€™t ā€œflattened the curveā€ nearly as much as was possible in the weeks past.

Itā€™s mighty unscientific on my part, but as far as sleep - I am a huge believer in it, and what it can do. Iā€™m a big abuser of myself as far as getting far too little sleep, and I swear Iā€™ve felt myself getting rundown and then a little bit sick, even if itā€™s just a cold sore on a lip. If I do think Iā€™ve got the virus, Iā€™m going to be one sleeping so-and-so! :stuck_out_tongue:


(Bunny) #54

I have naturally always gone with hunger or rejection signals when sick; if the very thought of eating makes me feel ill, I know itā€™s probably bacterial, but when Iā€™m sick and feel hungry I eat lots of carbohydrates and sugary stuff, thatā€™s how Iā€™ve always recovered from illness.

High ketones (acidic blood) would make it twice as hard to breath so I would definitely not want to be fasting or in ketosis with a respiratory illness or get into a line of thinking that ketosis or fasting improves immune function while your are sick.

Iā€™m absolutely sure the ancient ancestors were not sitting around parroting to themselves over and over again in brain washed like fashion that ā€œcarbohydrates are not required (essential) to sustain human lifeā€ ā€¦lol


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #55

Iā€™m absolutely sure they were not parroting that they were required eitherā€¦

LOL

P.S.

Iā€™m sure you are aware that it is a combination of blood sugar and ketones that causes ketoacidosis.
Not the ketones and lower levels of blood sugar associated with a ketogenic diet.


#56

I donā€™t know or care what my anchestors did, they probably didnā€™t even think if carbs are needed, they liked, had and ate them. I have little to do with my anchestors, I just got some of their good genes, thatā€™s good.
I definitely follow the urges of my body. The last thing I want when I am sick is carb poisoning and I get that if I eat too much carbs. I never desire the carbs itself, sometimes the taste is tempting but not when I am sick. If I am hungry, I always want fat and protein. So I eat those and not off-putting sugars.
I always recovered super quickly but I donā€™t get sick in every 10 years anyway.

Each to their own, I guess.

I donā€™t parrot anything either. Carbs arenā€™t essential nutrients, itā€™s a well-known fact, what to talk about it so much? The other two are essential. I am not interested in discussions we gain nothing, just lose.


(Bunny) #57

But in a worse case scenario if donā€™t have enough insulin or access to it, you would be up the creek without a paddle if you have respiratory illness?

And your body will be making plenty of glucose to add to the ketones if your already diabetic (ketoacidosis) without carbohydrates so that will be making it hard to breath on top of having respiratory illness?


(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #58

What does that have to do with the idea that increasing dietary carbohydrates would help with the treatment of CoronaVirus?

In the absence of sufficient insulin, it would possibly kill youā€¦


(Bunny) #59

Temporary exogenous sugars might be the answer to getting better and healing from a viral infection especially respiratory?

All plants (carbohydrates) get mistaken for sugar in the minds of the advocates for the carnivore agenda?


(bulkbiker) #60

Seriously?.. youā€™re getting quite desperate these daysā€¦