I am doing fasting and keto diet but still very confused about it

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(Robert Sun) #1

Hi everyone
I went through lots of research on ketogenesis online. However, I am still very confused about it.
a couple of questions:

  1. keto diet on weight loss:
    a typical keto diet of 10% carb, 20% protein and 70% fat on a 2500 cal(break even on calorie) plan will be 62.5g carb, 125g protein, 194g fat.
    now if I consume 94g(846cal) of fat instead of 194g I will consume 62.5g(250cal,15%) carb, 125g(500cal,30%) protein and 94g(846cal,55%) fat and burn 100g of my own fat.
    My keto level should be the same in both scenarios correct? then what if I cut more fat off my diet, I will still be in ketosis. Then this diet will be the same diet as a low carb diet with calorie restriction.

  2. About fast absorbing carbs like sugar:
    if I consume 10g of sugar, my body will use up that 10g of sugar in a fairly short amount of time then go back to ketosis.
    if I consume 10g of fiber, it will take a long time for my body to break it down. during this time am I still producing keto?

  3. which leads to my third question. What triggers ketosis?
    lack of calorie(carb, protein and fat) or just lack of carb and protein (even when we are consuming enough calorie from fat)

  4. how fast does our body switch back to ketosis?
    minutes, hours or days?

If we can switch back to ketosis fairly fast after carb and protein consumption and we don’t need consuming fat to trigger ketosis.
then fasting + low carb + calorie restriction will do wonders for weight loss.
why focus on eating bacon and drinking coffee with butter and cream?

(Anderson Herzogenrath Da Costa) #2

62.5g carbs is kinda high for ketosis. Might work for a healthy (non-insulin resistant) person if spread through the day. The general recommendation is staying below 50g - below 20g is even better.
About cutting 100g of dietary fat to use body fat, it won’t work at all if you are not yet adapted to burning fat.

Consuming sugar will spike your insulin and halt ketosis. You will get back to ketosis when the insulin drops.
Consuming fiber will have a much lower insulin effects and you will probably stay in ketosis the whole time.

Your body will first burn the glucose you consume on your diet (carbs) then it will use some of the glucose it has stored as glycogen and only after that it will start burning fat to produce ketones.
It has nothing to do with amount of calories.

It depends - it’s different from person to person.
Insulin resistant people takes more time to get back into ketosis due to the higher insulin spikes from the glucose. Exercises will help burn the glycogen stores faster. Fasting will help lower blood glucose and insulin and kickstart ketosis.
Normally you get into ketosis in 24 to 48 hours.

When you restrict calories too much your body will just adjust to it’s new “budget” lowering your metabolic rate.
Eating fat to satiety will probably lead to slower weight loss but will be much more sustainable.

(karen) #3

Someone else put it well (sorry I don’t remember who it was): the focus on fat, basically, is to make sure that we are not hungry. It’s not that fat is magic, it’s that we need an energy source that is not going to create an insulin spike or boost our other macros, especially while we are “training” our bodies to use ketones as fuel by severely restricting carbs and keeping protein very modest.

Also, counterintuitive as it sounds, it appears that fat eaten in the absence of carbohydrates or too much protein (in other words, in the absence of much insulin) doesn’t get stored in the body at the same rate that other macronutrients do. So we can satiate our hunger with fat and not gain weight in the way we would if we were eating those calories as carbs.

(Katie) #4

I do not consider a typical ketogenic diet to be 10%, just 20g of carbohydrates or fewer. This would amount to less than 10%, I believe.

(Dom DePlume) #5

Agreed. This is a super common mistake. Your carbs are measured in GRAMS, not percent. Your net carbs are 20 grams net per day. Your fat/protein macros can be a percent, but carbs are a hard & fast gram measurement.

(Robert Sun) #6

10%c/20%p/70%f is just an example for calulation only.
I am not sure why you guys keep mentioning the number 20g or fewer.

why we need to “train” our body to use ketone or “adapted to burning fat before burning fat”
I went on a water fast for a couple of days I don’t die because my body hasn’t learned how to use my body fat.
if we need energy our body first looks for glucose, if there is no glucose then it will try to make some. If we can’t make it, our body will consume body fat.

why eat fat when we have body fat to be consumed
BMR is determined by fat storage not fat intake so eating more fat will not increase BMR correct?
I know the hormonal response is important for weight loss but food intake is also important.
if we consume fat then we are not consuming our own body fat. Am I missing something?

p.s how do you get enough vitamins and mineral off 20g of carbs? 1 bunch of broccoli already contains 40 carbs, 1 avocado has 17 carbs

(Ron) #7
(Robert Sun) #8

I don’t think eating fat is the “training wheel”. we don’t really need “adapting to burning fat before burning fat”. we just need the right condition to get into ketosis. for example 24-48hrs of water fast. As long as glucose is missing we will burn fat and produce ketone.

(Dom DePlume) #9

We mention 20g or fewer because it’s generally accepted by medical and keto experts that a 20g ceiling on carbs can get anyone into at least .7-.8 ketosis and keep them there, at least for induction/fat adaptation. The more carbs, the higher the insulin, and less over-all blood sugar stability.

#10

20g or fewer is the fastest way to get into ketosis. Some people can eat more, others have to actually eat less. 20g is a common starting point for all and you can adjust however your body tolerates carbs. (as recommended by the leading doctors and researchers in the field)

Our bodies have been sugar burners for years. Now we want them to be efficient fat burners. When you go on a water fast for a couple days, sure your body goes into its fat stores after it burns off all the available glucose, but it doesn’t do it efficiently.

When you become “adapted” your body learns how to drive on the opposite side of the street. It’s hard at first, you get a little confused, but then once you get the hang of it, it’s like you were always driving on the opposite side of the street. That’s your body becoming fat adapted. You aren’t hungry, you don’t get cravings, you have lots of energy, and in theory it’s easier for you to bounce back after a “carb indulgence”.

We need fat for hormone regulation, I believe the minimum is 40 to 50g a day?? Someone can correct me if I’m wrong (that’s what I try to eat daily). Thyroid function, etc can be adversely effected if we do not eat enough fat via food daily.

I consume just enough so that the rest of my energy needs can come from my body fat.

Protein has lots of vitamins and minerals. Protein is your goal macro. You’ll want to make sure you’re eating enough protein per your lean body mass and activity levels. I never eat a bunch of broccoli nor an entire avocado in one day. I actually rarely eat broccoli and eat 1/2 an avocado daily. My vegetable of choice is leafy greens such as baby spinach. (I aim for 15g of carbs per day).

Have you read The Art and Science of Low Carb Living by Dr. Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek? You may enjoy that. Also, you can find some of their talks on YouTube. The channel “Low Carb Down Under” has great ones.

I hope that helps!! I’m no expert, but I’ve been doing lots of research. (I’ve been on the ketogenic diet since the beginning of March).

(Robert Sun) #11

I get around 0.8~1 in the evening(2 hours after feeding) and 1.5 before I break my fast. But I eat tons of veggie and nuts. Normally a large bowl of salad, steamed veggie, and i put cabbage and mashroom in my bone broth. I got keto rash last week thats why I am keeping my veggie high.

(Robert Sun) #12

thanks I will check it out soon.

(Ron) #13

Maybe this will explain some-
Posted on another thread:
"There are three macronutrients: fatty acids, protein, and carbohydrate. Carbohydrate stimulates insulin production, and insulin is the hormone that causes fat to be stored in the fat cells (adipose tissue). At the level of carbohydrate consumption recommended by the U.S. government, most people’s bodies produce insulin at a very high rate, forcing most ot the carbohydrate to be stored as fatty acids in the adipose tissue. To mobilize excess stored fat for metabolism, therefore, we have to find some way of lowering our insulin level. The good news, however, is that the body’s daily requirement for carbohydrate is 0 (zero) grams.

Protein stimulates insulin production, but at about half the rate of carbohydrate. Since we absolutely require protein in our diet every day, we need to eat enough protein to avoid malnutrition while avoiding eating too much (for one thing, that way lies ammonia toxicity). For most people, a good range to eat is 0.8 to 1.0 grams of protein per kilogram of lean body mass each day.

Fat hardly stimulates insulin production at all, so to give our bodies the calories they need, it’s the only really safe macronutrient to eat. The reason we say “eat fat to satiety” is that doing so allows the body to tell us how much it needs; for most people, a few weeks of eating a well-formulated ketogenic diet is enough to restore satiety signaling, a sensation by which we lose interest in eating for a while. So there is no need to count calories, because the body decides what it needs, and all we have to do is eat fat until we stop being hungry. For most people entering ketosis, eating fat to satiety leads them to spontaneously limit their calories to around 1500 or so a day. But there are verified records of study participants eating far more than this while still losing excess fat, so don’t worry about how much you’re eating. When given an abundance of calories the body ramps up the basal metabolic rate and even finds ways of wasting calories, whereas limiting calories runs the risk of giving the body the impression there’s a famine on, and it needs to conserve energy at all costs."

#14

I have the keto rash. Had it for weeks until I found a thread on here actually that led me to a podcast that suggested eating strawberries and adding Apple Cider Vinegar to your water. (I had been adding one tbsp to my water already, but it was suggested that I add 6 TBSP).

Here’s what was suggested if you’d like to try it…that rash is terrible…
6 tbsp of apple cider vinegar in a large bottle of water for 3 days (I drank it with a sugar free sweetener)
1 cup of strawberries every day for 1 week
1/2 cup of strawberries every day on week 2
1/4 cup of strawberries every day on week 3

I stalled eating the strawberries, so I ate: 1 cup for 3 days and then cut back to 1/2 cup for 4 days and then stopped eating the strawberries. My rash stopped itching and started healing!!! it was a miracle!! If it flares up, I’ll be doing this again. I did this a few weeks ago and it’s still good :slight_smile:
(I’ve also heard that epsom salt baths help). Good luck!

(Robert Sun) #15

I am doing apple cider vinegar, vitamine b, bile salt. its drying up now. I will be more careful next time I go 3~4 days water fast. my ketone went over 3. I never had it before, that was scary.