How much fat!?

[juice]

Are you turning into one of those spelling nazis that you told me about two days ago?

I am all about clarity, my man!

[ctviggen]

When I was on low fat, I counted calories (way back before an “app” and I had to use this ancient technology called a “computer” with “software”), did that for years. When I finally started low carb for good (started MANY times before then, but thought I had to have carbs for exercise, etc.), I promised myself I wouldn’t count calories.

So, I started out just going for low carbs and basically just estimating that. Of course, I started out eating garbage like Atkins bars and other crap, not knowing much. But after five years, I’ve learned I have to avoid anything with sweetness, all fake desserts, fat bombs except as (very infrequent) treats, no or little nuts, and basically stick to meat (mainly, 90+% meat) with some vegetables. Some keto meals and dairy at times. I even avoid oils (such as olive) except at certain times. I’ve begun to think that what we ate as paleo people is probably better for me, and paleo people didn’t eat oils (or avocados or other fruits that are freakishly large now).

And I think the over-reliance on macros is a pity. Who gives a crap how much fat you’re eating? Eat some meat and vegetables, and let your body decide whether it needs more fat or not. If you don’t hit 75% fat or whatever your macro says, it’s not a big deal. Just eat few carbs and avoid processed foods (including salad dressings, and “keto” foods). If it doesn’t come directly from an animal or the ground, consider not eating it. Do this as much as possible, with some breaks, and you’ll be OK. Regardless of what macro you did or did not hit.

[Ilana_Rose]

I’ve learned I have to avoid anything with sweetness, all fake desserts, fat bombs except as (very infrequent) treats, no or little nuts, and basically stick to meat (mainly, 90+% meat) with some vegetables. Some keto meals and dairy at times. I even avoid oils (such as olive) except at certain times.

It’s amazing… I’ve come to EXACTLY the same place. The only peice of the puzzle that I’m not certain about is the importance of high fat at maintenance. Things like the ultra high fat diet of the Inuit trouble me. They literally used to feed the leaner meats to their dogs while consuming pure fat themselves. Why?

[bfntn1]

I could be wrong, and even if I am right I am still assuming some details but…

Isn’t Ketosis somewhat thermogenic? I mean once fat adapted doesn’t it stimulate a slight increase in body temp?

If so it could be an attempt to increase survivability in the local environment

[cw2001]

Not as simple as that?

It’s certainly NOT as simple as saying “If I eat X grams of carbs, X grams of protein, and X grams of fat, I’ll lose fat but not muscle.”

Our bodies don’t know the numbers and don’t care. If I were in your situation, I’d concentrate on cutting the carbs, and then eating fattier protein and good fat (adding avocado, homemade mayo, butter, etc) where you WANT the fat. As in, don’t force yourself to eat the fat just for the sake of a macro. Then eat to satiety.

Depending on how quickly you normally see changes in your body, give it a week or a few days. If you like the changes you’re seeing (more lean in the mirror, for example), keep doing it. If you don’t like what you see (maybe look like you’re dropping muscle mass), then tweak what you’re eating. Keep in mind that muscles will often look “fuller” with lots of carbs due to the added water retention. To get that “shredded” look, you don’t want carbs and water. That’s why competitive body builders reduce carbs while training, but then increase sodium and water prior to a competition.

[cw2001]

Track everything with an app.

Am I the only one who never tracks any food with an app? 5 years low carb, the only time I tracked anything was when I was testing whether protein affected my blood sugar, then I manually added up calories and protein.

Never even heard of a “macro” until I started coming here.

I don’t. I thought about trying it again (used to count calories, use MFP, etc) for about 30 seconds. Long enough to sign up for a free cronometer account, put in 2 items, and said nope, not doing it.

I think diet/nutrition should be a healthy balance in someone’s life. Living by a set of numbers, imo, is not really healthy. Maybe it’s more of an American thing? We judge our wealth and happiness by the numbers on our paycheck. We watch the numbers on the clock to have fun for the weekend or go on vacation. We judge our physical fitness by the number of push-ups we can do or how many miles we can run. Our doctors judge our health by the numbers on a lab report. NONE of those are truly accurate measures of our happiness or health but we lose sight of that very easily.

[Alex99]

I think diet/nutrition should be a healthy balance in someone’s life. Living by a set of numbers, imo, is not really healthy. Maybe it’s more of an American thing? We judge our wealth and happiness by the numbers on our paycheck. We watch the numbers on the clock to have fun for the weekend or go on vacation. We judge our physical fitness by the number of push-ups we can do or how many miles we can run. Our doctors judge our health by the numbers on a lab report. NONE of those are truly accurate measures of our happiness or health but we lose sight of that very easily.

Okay fair enough but if somebody thinks they’re on a keto diet but they inadvertently eat 100g carbs everyday because they didn’t track them well enough they might be rather disappointed after a few weeks or months.

My parents did this! Thought they were eating healthy and thought they kept “carbs low” as per doctors orders. but they are both diabetic now.

They should have measured everything rather than guess

[cw2001]

Okay fair enough but if somebody thinks they’re on a keto diet but they inadvertently eat 100g carbs everyday because they didn’t track them well enough they might be rather disappointed after a few weeks or months.

My parents did this! Thought they were eating healthy and thought they kept “carbs low” as per doctors orders. but they are both diabetic now.

They should have measured everything rather than guess

I think if people are stressing <20 carbs per day, it should be relatively easy to check labels and keep a somewhat relaxed mental tally. Or have a list of “better vegetables” vs vegetables to avoid…that sort of thing.

Obviously, some people enjoy tracking every single thing, but I also think it tends to lead to more problems in the long run.

[juice]

it should be relatively easy to check labels and keep a somewhat relaxed mental tally.

Agreed. For some people.

Obviously, some people enjoy tracking every single thing, but I also think it tends to lead to more problems in the long run.

WRONG! It’s fun and educational![1]

[1]Even though I KNOW, I need to KNOW.

[PaulL]

no or little nuts,

No nuts? You’re crazy, man!

They literally used to feed the leaner meats to their dogs while consuming pure fat themselves. Why?

Because dogs can do just as well on leaner meat, whereas people have to have fat. The experiment on Stefansson and Andersen had an interesting moment when the researchers persuaded them to eat lean meal. They felt terrible, but were put right as rain once they ate a bit of fat.

In technical terms, fatty acids are a safe source of calories, because they hardly stimulate insulin secretion at all, compared to carbohydrate. We need some insulin circulating or we’ll die (as Type I diabetes so graphically illustrates), but we don’t need much. And eating an excessive amount of protein has it’s bad effects (ammonia toxicity is one; interestingly, the effect of protein on insulin is negligible in the context of a low-carb diet). So it’s the fat, baby! Of course, since fat contains twice as many calories per gram as carbohydrate or protein, it takes less to meet our needs.

Isn’t Ketosis somewhat thermogenic? I mean once fat adapted doesn’t it stimulate a slight increase in body temp?

It can speed up the basal metabolic rate, and it can uncouple the mitochondria in adipose tissue, so that they can burn fat in excess of the adipose cell’s metabolic requirements, thereby wasting heat. This is the underlying cause of the “meat sweats,” I understand.

[PaulL]

Okay fair enough but if somebody thinks they’re on a keto diet but they inadvertently eat 100g carbs everyday

Dr. Phinney, in his lectures several years ago (I used to watch a lot of YouTube), referred to 100 g/day of carbohydrate as a “well-formulated ketogenic diet.” I notice, however, that these days his advice on the Virta Health site is a 50 g/day limit. Here we advise even less, because these forums tend to attract people whose metabolisms are badly messed up.

I’m sorry for your parents’ experience, but it seems they were more insulin resistant than a 100 g/day limit could heal. I suspect, however, that they could find a significant degree of healing—perhaps even reverse their diabetes—if they ate significantly less carbohydrate. Can you get them down to 20 g/day? That’s our recommendation around here, and for good reason. Reversing Type II diabetes is entirely possible. Many on these forums have done it.

[Ilana_Rose]

Stefansson and Andersen had an interesting moment when the researchers persuaded them to eat lean meal. They felt terrible, but were put right as rain once they ate a bit of fat.

Ooh, thank you. I’d started reading Stefansson’s account of his expeditions and this experiment yesterday and was finding it crazy fascinating but had put it down and forgotten about it just before I got to the experiment part. Now you’ve reminded me and I can’t wait to get back to it.

For anyone who’s interested: http://www.comby.org/documents/documents_in_english/stefansson-diet-adventures.htm

[Janie]

Thanks for a fascinating read!!

[David_Stilley]

Things like the ultra high fat diet of the Inuit trouble me. They literally used to feed the leaner meats to their dogs while consuming pure fat themselves. Why?

Probably because they need like 5000-6000 calories a day to function and work in the Arctic cold. I think they commonly eat dried fish harvested in summer dipped in rendered seal fat to get through the winter.

[Ilana_Rose]

Probably because they need like 5000-6000 calories a day to function and work in the Arctic cold.

That makes SO much sense.

[Littlerose84]

Actually, the natives here, even those that dont live super north, still eat drink fish strips dipped in seal oil. to them, it tastes good. I’ve had it and it DOES taste good.

I think it also keeps you warmer for the winter. Also, fat used to be used for cooking, as they didn’t have access to olive oil and such. Fattier meats are praised over lean meats.