How much can we chalk up to indivual variability?

(Bob M) #1

Listened to this, which is L.J. Amaral discussing using the keto diet for certain types of cancer:

At about the 27:30 mark, she discusses how two people on the same diet (mainly a high fat, 3:1 - fat to protein/carbs - diet for cancer) can have completely different ketone and blood sugar levels. She then discusses how some people have to have MCT oils and exogenous ketones to get the ketone levels they want. She had no explanation as to why. Others can cut back on fat and still have high enough ketones.

I often wonder if this type of human variability is the reason for the conflicts that can occur here and elsewhere.

Take Dr. Ted Naiman for instance, he of the P:E (protein to energy) diet:

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His website unfortunately no longer succinctly says what his diet is, but I believe he thinks that if your P:E is >1, you lose weight, and if your P:E < 1, you gain weight. Notice that he’s implying that if you eat a ribeye, cheese, or (I guess low fat? milk), you’re gaining weight. (As someone who drinks full fat raw milk pretty much every day and is losing weight, I find this problematic.)

I believe he thinks this because it works for him. I think it does work, especially if you’re relatively thin, male, and doing body weight training or lifting weights. (Note: Looking at Maria Emmerich’s results, this type of diet may have a wider applicability, but I’m trying not to speculate too much, as her diet tends to be low calorie with some very low calorie days.)

But what if you’re not like that?

Someone on Reddit was giving me crap because they have been keto for 8 years and still can get ketones in the 5-6 range (which, by the way, I have NEVER seen in myself, no matter how much fat I was eating). Whereas my ketones are around 0.2 in the morning, every morning.

Let’s assume that protein does have something to do with ketone levels. Can I go from 0.2 in the morning to 5.0? I don’t think that’s possible. (I’m about to do a test of this to see what is possible, but it’ll be in a few weeks.) I’m in my 11th year, and have had well over 1,000 times when I’ve exercised. My body might not need to produce high ketones. My ketone output might be exactly what my body needs.

But I wonder if some of the conflicts we see here and elsewhere are due to individual variability. Maybe some people are better off eating higher carbs? Maybe some are better off not eating higher carbs? Maybe some people are better off fasting less? Maybe some people will produce very high ketones, while others on the same diet will not? Maybe some people should be eating higher fiber? Maybe some (like me) have issues with fiber?

The other issue is that I lack knowledge about a lot of this. My blood sugar – per pin prick meter – was in the mid 120s the other morning. Now, I think a drug I had to start taking a while ago is mainly to blame, but is 120 in the morning good? (It was 114 this morning.) I also got an 85 at night the other day. So, obviously my blood sugar is higher in the morning and then goes down all day. But should I be eating more fat to attempt to lower morning blood sugar? (And would that even work?) I can honestly say I have no idea. As someone keto 10+ years, there are no studies of someone like me.

Also, at about the 32:00 mark, she makes the comment that apple cider vinegar + water can increase ketones. I’ve never heard of that. Anyone else hear about this, and, if so, how does it work?

(Edith) #2

Hum… maybe try the therapeutic version of keto which maybe could be considered “pure” keto or “original” keto. See what your numbers are on that and then play around with protein and fat ratios.

#3

100%. Ask any knowledgeable doctor about most things, and you will hear the same story. They generally follow a basic protocol because it works-that is, until they get “that patient,” where the protocol does not work and they must go off-book. Keto is no different. I have two friends who lived together, worked together, and ate the same foods (keto) for six months. One lost 75 pounds, and the other struggled to lose 15 pounds. Both were 6’3’ and started at about 280 lbs. I have noticed that those with blood type O (45% of the Western world) seem to have an easier path on keto than those who do not have this blood type. I know of a female that went on a medically supervised (doctor check in 4/week) keto diet, and after 5 weeks they kicked her out of the program because they said she was cheating and eating lots of sweets. This was not the case.
So while we are all somewhat alike, we are also quite different.

Ignore such nonsense. Unless they are taking tons of exogenous ketones, maybe they could get to that level, but I doubt it, especially after 8 years. I would call it BS.
There is not one diet or eating protocol that is perfect for everyone. There are some that thrive on carnivore and others who thrive at the other end of the spectrum. However, on an individual basis, one can attempt to narrow the range to what works for them. The difficulty that I have is time. I believe there is a duality. What I mean is that in the short term, a protocol may be very beneficial, but in the long term, it could be detrimental. My approach now is to eat good-quality, unprocessed foods as much as possible (90%) with no added sugar, and I tend to eat fewer carbs (90%) of the time.

(Geoffrey) #4

Of course. This is why I tell people that this (carnivore) is not a cookie cutter diet. We all have different physiology and what worked for me may not work for you. Everyone has to start with a foundation that is the same and then adjust it to what their needs are.