Honey question


(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #21

Here’s what would happen to me with one spoon of honey, I’d notice little difference in weight and blood sugar etc etc … so tomorrow I’d have 2 spoons of honey and a week later 3 spoons of honey, a large pizza and a Chinese meal intended for 3 people :rofl:


#22

That would be me,too. That´s just how it goes for some.


(B Creighton) #23

While this is promoted by the honey industry, I am extremely dubious as an extreme allergy sufferer myself. The reason is I am allergic to air pollinated plants. The flowering plants bees pollinate, do not air pollinate - the bees and other insects pollinate them. Hence, I can generally smell and enjoy the flowers. Therefore, your body has little to no exposure to the pollens from the plants frequented by the bees. Now, the honey may help dry up your sinuses somehow, but I have never noticed it personally. Does honey have other health benefits? Yes, some, but eating more than a few grams is going to force your liver to turn the fructose into a saturated fat, palmitic acid. It is not generally as bad on the keto scale because glucose - not fructose is generally what throws you out of ketosis. Honey also has a little trehelose sugar. Nevertheless, honey is still about 30% glucose, so it definitely can throw you out of ketosis with more than an ounce or so. I doubt a tsp is going to do much though.


(Joey) #24

I’m keeping an open mind… after all, what could possibly go wrong with eating insect vomit? :roll_eyes:


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #25

It will never affect ketone levels (not directly, anyway), since the pancreas responds to serum glucose, not serum fructose. On the other hand, fructose in any kind of quantity causes mitochondrial damage, fat deposition, which does eventually lead to hyperinsulinaemia and insulin-resistance in the end.

Remember that the point of a ketogenic diet is not the actual production of ketones, which are more a marker of the fact that serum insulin has dropped low enough to make ketogenis possible. When insulin is that low, it is a sign that hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia are no longer wreaking havoc, and the body can restart its journey toward better metabolic (and general health).

While everyone’s results are going to vary, the basic biochemistry is the same. How much toxin can your mitochondria deal with? They may well be capable of dealing with more fructose, if you are avoiding industrial solvents, air pollution, cigarette smoke and other mitotoxins.


#26

Yeah,I took that stupid melatonin spray by accident. And just happened to notice the ketone thing.

I am by no means recommending fructose to anyone.


(Bob M) #27

I highly doubt this. Fructose in some amount might cause this, but it’s doubtful a teaspoon of honey would do much of anything.

I see these simple rules all the time. Case in point: “Milk is for causing cows to grow! Therefore, it will cause you to gain weight!” But I’m drinking (raw) milk while losing weight.

I think we need to be reasonable. I’m sure there’s an amount of fructose that is bad for you. But what that amount is is probably variable per person and likely not known.


(Bob M) #28

It’s pretty easy to find quite a few studies indicating that “bee vomit” has antiviral and antibiotic properties, even when eaten. You might not agree, but the studies are there. One of many:

I say this as someone who does not eat honey, though I do have manuka honey in my cabinet.


(Joey) #29

Thanks! Like I said above, keeping an open mind. :brain:


#30

Quit honey for a while and report back? This is interesting.

A spoonful of honey every day would ruin my keto for sure, I´d be ordering pizzas within a few weeks.


#31

Me too. It would make zero sense, we ate fruit during our evolution and it shows…
I have read an article about if a few days ago, it made sense: we can’t handle lots of fructose, it shouldn’t reach the liver but it doesn’t do that when it’s a modest amount, something like this.
Whatever is the case, no way I will stop eating fruit (well for a long time, I do wish to give a chance to carnivore in February again… this last year just didn’t go so well plant wise) and it’s not like I don’t consume toxins (my tiny alcohol) or get micro damage of muscles and free radicals from exercise :smiley: My body is made to handle a certain amount of real or potential damage, I just shouldn’t be nearly as careless as the average person.

Yes, the article said it’s variable, of course it is but we know the body usually tries to mitigate the problems when they are a common occurence. So someone who eats lots of fructose can handle more (but they still overdo it I guess…) while I probably handle less (it feels so but maybe my body just got better at nudging me. but I don’t tend to overdo fructose anymore) and who knows what someone with no fruit eating since years have regarding this…


#32

What fruit are you eating? I can handle avocado and some lemon juice.


#33

I won’t put zillion spoiler tags here, be warned, I was asked about fruits and I wrote about fruits as I always do. I don’t even need to be asked, the barest mention is enough and I have no power to stop myself.

With some exaggeration, all of them (well just whatever I can find, there are so very many kinds I have no real chance to have… without spending a ton of money to get it sent to me) :smiley:
But not exactly, even I have some I dislike. (I hate blackberries the most but it’s not the forgettable fruit but all the THORNS and high maintenance. My SO doesn’t want me to cut them all out for some reason…)

I have groups on different levels. As my carb intake is a wide range when we include my frequent off eating - and amounts matter anyway.
I never ban all fruit on my carnivore-ish, I keep lemon. It’s not like I eat it every week but sometimes a few drops of lemon juice is what my dessert needs. Or my fish but that’s rare.
My old favs on my original keto were banana and raspberries. No way I give up banana, it’s great.
I love mango. It doesn’t mean I eat it every year or I would ever eat a whole one but it’s lovely.
I pretty much banned watermelon (isn’t even tasty just fun because it’s basically solid water just super sugary. I just ate 1kg at once, even a few years ago, just couldn’t go lower. last year I could, wow. but it’s just don’t worth it, not great) and (not Medjool) dates (I had no stop switch, I am better now but nope). Not the vaguest idea what I would do with Medjool dates as I only ate them way before low-carb and I won’t spend a lot of money on some super sugary (and inferior because extreme low-fat low protein) candy when I can buy great meat with it. Or at least some pretty nice, juicy, crunchy carby thing (in percentages, at least) in big amounts. We bought a radish for less than $1 and it’s over 1kg, that’s good. I had a few thin slices with my meat. Not needed but nice.

It’s winter now so tropical fruit and apple season for me (December is supposed to be that, January to May should be carnivore-ish by default but I am bad at that now). Because my SO buys extremely delicious apples all the time, juicy too… Pure. Bliss. Always loved apples and ate them galore in my old days. Like 1kg at once, I had such a period… My body must be so sturdy… Though fruitarians don’t die almost immediately either… The human body is just amazing.

My SO eats raisins every day in serious amounts but he is a high-carber thriving on his diet. Fruit is way more important for him, I merely LOVE them to bits. (Raising are tasty but not my cup of tea. By the way, I still have some wild cherry tea with lots of raisins from years ago… I should make it for him one day… It’s not really for me with its excessive amount of sugar.)

Sometimes I eat my canned cherries too. Or greengage jam.

I feel a bit bad now… Still no regrets, of course. Fruits are amazing. And I can eat them in moderation, usually. I had keto days when I had 6 different kind and considering I had maybe 3g net carbs for fruits in total when I still ate plants, it made some ridiculous (but quite satisfying) amounts…

Sorry buy you asked and I am easily triggered when fruit is mentioned… I suspect I swapped eating lots of fruit with talking and thinking about them, looking at them and so on. I had a cherry month when I painted cherries in different styles every day too. It was great. It was cherry season so I even used live models. I am good at not eating my models.

I should paint fruits tomorrow and soak up their wonderfulness so I finally could do some proper carnivore for several days next week. I had such weeks before…

Oh I drink fruit juice too, no matter the kind just it must be a tiny amount in the bottom of a jar I pressure canned. All of them are so very sweet (except greengage. it has about zero sweetness and nearly a lemon level sourness. I have some great dark purple greengage) I dilute them with a lot of carbonated water. Some are still very colorful and tasty then (sour cherry is the best fruit ever, good for anything that suits a fruit).
I had no idea quince is so very sweet but when cooked it is. (It’s a bit the opposite of apricot, that is super sweet raw and it gets sour and not sweet when cooked. HOW? But my greengage is tasteless raw and gets a lovely plum flavor when cooked a bit - except it’s sour and not sweet as I already wrote).

I could write about fruits forever. I have many photos too. From flower to fruit. Even as flowers, they are wonderful and not even sugary then :smiley: Well a tiny bit but I am a human and I don’t suck out nectar anyway. That was for black locust. It’s maybe the worst name for a normal looking tree (it even has thorns… in my world, that’s normal. half of my many plants have thorns) with white flowers.

And this is enough for this weird therapy session where I talk about potentially embarrassing vices and weaknesses. But they are FRUITS and I am me, how could I resist for long?


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #34

The issue is at what rate the liver is being bombarded with fructose, alcohol, and/or branched-chain amino acids. Too high a rate causes a build-up of liver fat, which, Bikman says, has been shown to eventually lead to insulin-resistance/hyperglycaemia.

But rate-limited intake of fructose/alcohol/BCAA’s is not a problem. The liver can indeed handle a certain amount. But all three substances have to be dealt with by the same metabolic pathway, which we don’t want to overwhelm. Bear in mind that a single glass of orange or apple juice contains enough fructose to cause trouble. Put vodka in that orange juice, and you’re really asking for trouble. (Whereas you probably can’t eat enough oranges or apples in one sitting to get an equivalent amount of fructose, and the fibre in the whole fruit helps slow the absorption rate of what fructose you can eat, in the form of whole fruit.)

Anyway, if your liver enzymes start to go wonky, it’s time to cut back on the honey.


#35

I don’t really care about the alcohol as I drink a negligible amount. But no one can take away my fruits :slight_smile: I don’t care about juice as I drink little anyway. Whole fruit is where one (well, past me and many others) too easily eats a ton. 1-2-3 kg fruit isn’t a hard thing to eat in a few hours (I always stopped around 1kg in one sitting) and I bet it’s many times more than the amount a polite person throws at their liver… The article said some cute amount, enough for joy but WAY below what many people eat in one sitting. So one should be mildly careful but fructose alone shouldn’t be a reason to give up on this joy.

I wonder how much the fiber can help. It slows down the absorption, yes but if one eats very much, it’s probably still not good (just from this fructose viewpoint, of course a lot of sugar isn’t good for most of us under normal circumstances)… It would be nice to really know how much is too much (I don’t worry about myself but my SO is a huge fruit lover. thankfully, it’s more like all the time than in huge amounts. all the time means for nearly each and every meal so 3 times per day) - but it’s impossible as there are individual factors. But it would be good to see some studies with people who always eat some apples or the equivalent amount of fruit basically every day since ages…

I did have vodka in orange at some point in my life :slight_smile: My body was resilient and others did so, so much worse so I was fine I guess. It’s not like I did it every year or something. Now I wouldn’t worry about vodka oranges at all, it would be vodka orange for ants! :smiley:
(But I trust my body with my fruits anyway, I always get a clear stop sign at some early point in the cases when I want to eat much. I do eat much but I ate 10 times more in my distant past.)