Hitting the wall doing fasted cardio: Stokies needs help

exercise
(Carolyn aka stokies) #1

Not sure if this is the right place to ask - so feel free to redirect… but I am struggling with re-learning how to eat to perform, being now down 110 pounds and cycling (biking) up towards 100 miles a week.

Thoughts? My body is responding so much differently from when I started back biking while fasted earlier in the season. I was able to go many miles (up to 40 at a time) while fasted with no worries, but now I am bonking like a mo-fo at even just 25… the primary difference between then and now? Other than the weight loss? Overall, I’ve lost a third of my body mass… but from the beginning of the season to now, I would say it was a loss of about 20-25 lbs.

My hydration and electrolytes are well attended to as well…

Thanks for any input…

(Full Metal KETO AF) #2

110! You’ve lost significant weight since the last post I saw, congratulations Stokies! The answer is obvious to me, you don’t have the body fat to draw from that you did.

Fasting + Long Endurance Sport + Low trim body weight (fat %) = You need more fuel!

(Bunny) #3

One reason is time on the ketogenic diet once you hit the 27 week mark (6 months) of burning fat for fuel then the bonking might stop[2][3][4]?

And:

Other Interesting Stuff:

[1] “…A caloric deficit typically causes us to lose weight, but if we eat sufficient amounts of protein and do strength training, we can retain or increase muscle mass . …” “…The body should then burn more body fat compared to a calorie restricted diet. As such, keto may have a metabolic advantage ” (Volek et al., 2004). …More

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[2] Zach Bitter Is the 100-mile American Record Holder. He Also Eats Almost No Carbs.

[3] World Record-Holder Reveals Key To Performance Success

[4] “…Four British rowers broke the Atlantic crossing record on a very low-carb, high-fat, moderate-protein regimen. 4 News: British rowers break Atlantic crossing record

[5] “…Approximately 65% of glycogen is water. Conversely, triglyceride, the major storage form of fat, is anhydrous and hydro-phobic, thus making it lighter than glycogen (see Chapters 53 and 57). If a dog stored the same amount of glycogen as it does fat, it would be nearly twice as heavy, and its mobility would be severely reduced. …” …Textbook of Veterinary Physiological Chemistry (Third Edition) 2015, Pages 147-152

#4

110lbs down! HELL YA! 100mi a week is some serious riding, you need to understand you’re crossing into the athletic/performance realm. I bike myself, mostly MTB but also some trail rides and much of the advise you get is more of the mindset of weight loss and keto to manage disease. Not everybody, we’ve got some athletes and lifters here without question but most is the other side of stuff.

I can tell you that me 100lbs ago and me now are VERY different in almost every way when it comes to keto, my performance, how I run on fat vs before, protein tolerance, EVERYTHING!

When I was heavier I did the “standard” keto as most here do, If I ate too many carbs, I felt like crap, if my protein was too “high” I felt like crap, I’d stop loosing weight, I wouldn’t have energy, couldn’t perform in the gym etc. Got all the standard advise, eat more(I was eating plenty), eat more fat (that almost wasn’t possible), more salt (never had issues there as I’m a salt freak). Ultimately nothing worked and I plateaued for a long time. So given the changes I started reading what some of the “performance” people doing keto were doing and it seemed they ran by a slightly different set of rules. The first thing was they watched calories, whether it was to loose weight or put it on, they went by them. That was insane to me, but so was 6+mo if a stall both in weight loss and muscle gain. So I had my RMR tested, realized it was TRASHED and started counting them and adjusting the accordingly. Within 2 weeks I started loosing weight again… and it continued. Next thing was muscle gain stalls, most on the other side don’t fear protein like many keto’rs do. I played with protein before and too much always made me feel bad but I was a lot lighter and more active now so I cranked it up to 150g/day… and I felt better! Then 175, and now it’s around 200g/day and my gym performance is better is noticeable muscle response from it both on the weights and visually. Last step was (now people will get pissed) adding in some good carbs around heavy workouts… NIGHT AND DAY difference! When I’d read other people doing long biking sessions and bonking I though they must be doing something wrong because I could ride FOREVER on my fat stores… Not any more! I need some faster burning fuel. We know as we adapt the body because very “efficient” at fuel conservation over time which is the thought on why us long timers have lower ketones. Well, when I’m in the gym or on my bike I don’t want to be a fuel sipping Prius, I want to be a gas guzzling Dragster! That’s where the speed and performance comes from. I had to come to the realization that some fuel sources are just better at certain things. I feel I’ve achieved true metabolic flexibility at this point and truly think that’s the best place to be. I can run on fat and feel fine, I can run on carbs and not have hangovers after. I can even have (bad) carb cheat meal and NOTHING happens. I can then go from that cheat meal to a fast the next day without issue. Being able to seamlessly switch between fuel sources should be the goal. THAT is efficiency. “Real” cyclists and runners are often into glucose goo gels for the hard rides, I’ve never used those but I do intentionally spike myself with glucose post workout as we’re insulin sensitive after them and have noticed massive results since doing that, doesn’t seem to have any negative effects overall with either weight loss or ketones (while I was checking) so may be something to look into.

(Erin Macfarland ) #5

@atomicspacebunny you always share awesome links! I follow Zach Bitter, being an endurance runner myself (though no where near the mileage he does!!). It is advantageous to run on fatty acids when you are doing fasted cardio. However, this is something that always bothers me, especially from someone as knowledgeable as he is, it is NOT true that even the leanest athletes have enough body fat to fuel a marathon. No…someone as lean as he is (I’m guessing 7-8% BF when he’s in peak training mode), or even myself, at around 12% BF, cannot draw enough energy from stored fat to fuel that kind of activity. If you’ve been on this forum for a while, you probably know about Richard’s article explaining how much energy can be drawn from body fat stores each day. And if you only have say, ten pounds of body fat, it’s a maximum of like 350-400 calories. Not even close to what’s required to run a marathon! So as athletes that are fat adapted and performing high volumes of exercise, it’s crucial to get enough fat in one’s diet to compensate for a lack of body fat!

(Susan) #6

Congratsssss =)).

(Full Metal KETO AF) #7

@lfod14 And then there’s Shawn Baker who beat all the carb burners in 500meter rowing and set a new world record multiple times beating his own record in a sport that requires a huge burst of instant energy, while on a Carnivore Diet.

He kind of blows the carbs are necessary for high performance and effective bodybuilding myth out of the water!

:cowboy_hat_face:

#8

No, not really. Baker is a freak, he admits that himself. I never said that you couldn’t do that stuff on a fat fuel tank, but it’s not as easy. I’ve been lifting for years on fat, and not progressing anymore. Being that I lifted prior on carbs I have something to compare against, sure I was younger but there’s still a point where things just aren’t working. I never had energy issues or the inability to complete workouts, they were just never as good. I had strength gains, and SOME size gain but it deadended and no amount of the normal things a keto lifter could do would help. That conveniently changed when I started adding some supplemental fuel around my workouts. If you know of some keto lifters that actually put on real size while being keto please send info, I’d love to see what they’re doing, because even in this realm I can’t seem to find anybody having anywhere near equal success to our carb powered counterparts. There’s a ton of people out there as this point that are jacked and keto like Robert Sikes, Danny Vega, Jason Whitrock, Logan Delgado (goody beats) problem with every one of them is they CAME to keto with strength and muscle, keeping it and getting it aren’t the same! Same goes for Baker, he was a very able athlete and record holder that converted after the fact. It’s pretty clear you can hold onto your muscle and performance in most cases when you switch to keto, but going from fat to muscular is a nightmare while fat powered. Not the loosing the fat part obviously, but the muscle gains. Even over at Ketogains which is all lifters so arguably the best place to see the results of many people with the same goals, for the people that post pics, the people with the most gains are always the ones doing TKD or CKD. Not knocking keto, I still eat this way minus around my workouts but for the long list of things it’s the best at… muscle building isn’t one of them. I don’t want to take 5-6 years to get the muscle gain I can get in 1-2yrs with a pretty minor dietary tweak. That’s just me.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #9

The size of muscles pumped up with carb intake is a lot of water too. Bigger muscles don’t necessary equate to stronger muscles, just a pumped up appearance. Muscles may flatten out some on keto but that doesn’t necessarily mean a reduction in strength. Calling Shawn a freak is misleading, he’s a freak in the sense that he does things in a way contrary to most approaches, but he had the exact opposite experience from what you describe. I don’t know your age but I have seen before and after pictures of him, a life long training fanatic and he was failing as he aged on a carb diet. He turned that around mid life with carnivore and looks like a younger healthier man now than he did eating carbs and weight training. All his record breaking victories came after switching to zero carb. Maybe the way you did keto and working out just didn’t have the right chemistry because of what you ate and going back to carbs is just an easy shortcut around real metabolic health and thriving in a better way. Getting bulk is easier with carbs. The healthy carb is a myth, they are tolerated as incidental in food like eggs and organ meats but they are not necessary nutritionally. I still eat some vegetables but it’s for dietary variety, not because I believe I need the carbs. The benefits of nutritional ketosis go way beyond any benefit of bulking out with carbohydrates as part of the equation. By training with carbs you cause an insulin response that forces lipids and water into your muscles causing that bulking. But the question remains if two guys were exactly the same muscle body fat ratio and mass and one was eating carbs and the other carnivore who would actually have more strength and health? It’s even possible to build up massive amounts of muscle eating vegan but is that really healthy? Also most people going carnivore increase muscle mass without exercise and loose fat simultaneously. If you look at carnivore groups like the Maasai they have superior strength and size compared to neighbouring tribes with a higher level of carbohydrates in their diet. Men eat different than the women do and are on a warrior diet which is basically carnivore. When the British were recruiting soldiers in Africa men from the carb eating tribes were not fit like the Maasai and had way too many health issues, and they were considerably weaker too. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Bunny) #10

I always wondered that myself it’s almost as if you ate enough fatty protein (e.g. protein, {real grass fed meat, pork, sea foods, chicken not a protein shake} and salt to snack on rather than carbs?) then you would be making plenty of endogenous carbs or glucose and fatty acids for fuel; your body would simply switch biological pathways but will default to glucose from glycogen in skeletal muscle and fructose in the liver and glycogen in adipose tissue (if you have enough) first then when that runs out it switches to free fatty acids (FFA’s)!

Just an idea on how that might work when it comes to increased long-term endurance, strength and speed when burning two or more (there are also others it can use if needed) types of fuel rather than just exogenous glucose and fructose which might slow you down but it would take 27 weeks to achieve that kind metabolic state?

In my opinion If your burning more than one type of fuel your going to be stronger and have more endurance and speed because you would be outpacing some one just burning glucose; having a dependency on exogenous glucose rather than endogenously produced glucose and they are going to bonk a lot sooner than you will (research needed?); it would be like having the strength, speed and endurance multiplied by two men (or women) or more in one body?

That’s why keto is so awesome! (…and why the military wants to weaponize it)

Exogenous carbohydrates may speed you up temporarily but will slow you down too with an after burner effect of being tired (lethargy), it is just blip on a graph compared to a ketogenic metabolism!

Footnote:

[1] protein supplied endogenous glucose (gluconeogenesis) + salt (sodium and potassium) is going to be steady and not have insulin jumping all over the place? (will drain your electrical {electrolytes} currents faster)

(Erin Macfarland ) #11

@atomicspacebunny because I’m a total nerd I think about these scenarios a lot- and it’s surprisingly difficult to find good information about energy substrate utilization for fat adapted athletes. There’s the FASTER study, but most of that information pertains to the glucose sparing effect of ketones in skeletal muscle. How the body partitions fuel depends of course on the type and intensity of exercise being performed. And for well trained, fat adapted athletes, a greater percentage of fuel at higher intensities comes from fatty acids. Anaerobic activity is still mostly glycolytic but you’re using way more fat than someone that runs primarily on glucose. My questions though are around what happens when, if you are lean, fat adapted, doing high volumes of endurance exercise, and you have a small amount of body fat to draw on but no where near enough to fuel essential functions let alone exercise. Obviously the body will burn FFA’s from say, the previous day’s meals. And I know I’ve heard Richard talk about the amino acids in the labile pool (pretty sure I got that correct, lol)…so you use those too. But I mean, how can these lean keto people be boasting about doing extended fasting and still exercising when there’s not enough energy coming from body fat stores?? Probably some catabolism of LBM…but seriously! Peter Attia is a good example, he documents his extended fasts, which I think last from 5 days to a week, and he takes electrolytes and every thing but he’s pretty lean. The math just doesn’t add up for me! I can’t get past 24 hours. Or at least I haven’t forced myself to (I mean what’s the point…Psychologically I know that would really mess me up so I don’t even try). But how can these people get through all that fasting or running and not have deleterious effects on their health?

#12

I account for (to the best of my ability) normal glycogen loads vs the very low glycogen that I carry when strict keto. The difference for me at least is actually pretty minimal as far as pre lifting size with or without full glycogen tanks. After a heavy lifting session the pump is obviously better, but I never count that, that’s just not a fair comparison. I’m more about strength progressing than anything. I’m not concerned with the false size visuals, plus again, for me it’s pretty minimal. For me the gains started again with post workout carbs, I also started absorbing more of my post workout nutrition as evidenced by not stopping to pee 27 times within the first couple hours post workout (years of that) which stopped along with the post workout carbs.

Strict keto for over 2.5yrs dude, 100lbs down, BP from stage 2 hypertension to low normal and a 4.8 A1C. I wasn’t flip-flopping between standard keto and carbs.

I wouldn’t agree with that even when I was religiously strict with my keto. Broccoli, Cauliflower, Nuts etc. We still eat carbs on keto, just lower glycemic ones.

Yes I do, which helps recovery and nutrient absorption. An insulin bump post workout when we’re more insulin sensitive isn’t going to kill anybody. I’m not in any way doing a traditional bulk, be there done that years ago. My ketones and sugars on average not counting post workout are no different than they were before I started tweaking things. Not that I check that stuff all the time anymore, but I still did when I started this. I’m still keto the rest of the day. You’re comparing my post workout carbs, to somebody that uses carbs as their energy source and is a staple in their diet, that’s comparing apples to bowling balls. That doesn’t even slightly match my situation. My situation is more like a typically strict keto’r that does a hard workout and sneaks a cookie. (No I don’t eat a cookie after my workout people). :grinning:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #13

These foods offer nutrition in spite of their carb amount. It isn’t the sugars that give them any health benefits, it’s the other stuff they contain and all those foods are beat by liver hands down for nutrients. The carbs in liver aren’t “healthy” they are incidental and you get benefits beyond any negative effect of that sugar. I would put the same concept forward with the foods you mention. I did not mean to insult you about “doing it wrong”. Obviously you had vast improvement on keto and I commend you for a job well done shedding that 100 lbs and fixing the metabolic issues. I didn’t suggest you were a slacker and flip flopping between keto and carbs. You are obviously happy with the way things are going so I don’t mean to be critical of you, just hashing over perspectives here. I don’t believe what I said is any more relevant than your experiences are. I just don’t believe that the pumping up on carbs pre or post workout is necessary to progress, but you do you of course. We interacted before on this same topic a few days ago. I just don’t believe carbs are the necessary solution to building muscle.

:cowboy_hat_face:

#14

Fair enough!

(Bunny) #15

Yes that could be it but not as likely if your eating more protein is my guess and here are some recent e-mails by Dr. Peter Attia that kind get into this subject here: “Can you preserve lean body mass during “semi-starvation?” and here: “Can you maintain muscle during fasting?” to paraphrase and sum it up: “The fatter you are the more lean body mass will be preserved?”

Maybe because catabolism would be the last thing to occur but if your eating at your normal pace and not trying to fast your turning last nights steak or the steak you ate 5 days ago into glucose (glycogen) if the fat fuel has been exhausted but that maybe the opposite because the glucose from glycogen gets burned first then the fatty acids take over? With exogenous carbohydrates you need to constantly eat them and they get burned at very fast speeds while getting the freak on with your insulin…lol