High LDL cholesterol on carnivore?

(Denise) #41

Oh this is great, as I couldn’t get the translator from Google to work on the site as it said it would :wink:

Thanks much, Denise

#42

Depends on how long you’ve been eating that way, at first it’s always higher. Takes a while to balance out. LDL can be bad, but it depends on which one you have. Standard lipid panels are completely useless for making any type of decision, you need an NMR Lipoprofile so you get all your numbers. Only then can you decide if you have a problem or not.

Exactly, make her aware she’s not qualified to judge how anybody else eats. My mother does the same crap. I’m a million times healthier than her will every type of lab known to man that agrees with that. Gotta shut people down, it’s the only way.

(Joey) #43

Semantics aside, aren’t the two essentially performing making the same comparison? Or am I missing a meaningful difference?

From Wikipedia:

In survival analysis, the hazard ratio ( HR ) is the ratio of the hazard rates corresponding to the conditions characterised by two distinct levels of a treatment variable of interest. For example, in a clinical study of a drug, the treated population may die at twice the rate per unit time of the control population. The hazard ratio would be 2, indicating higher hazard of death from the treatment.

Also from Wikipedia:

The relative risk (RR) or risk ratio is the ratio of the probability of an outcome in an exposed group to the probability of an outcome in an unexposed group. Together with risk difference and odds ratio, relative risk measures the association between the exposure and the outcome.

(Joey) #44

Sadly, the other way is to attend their funeral. I regret having had to do that too often.

#45

Yup, my mother that constantly says I’m going to kill myself will all the stuff I do that she doesn’t even remotely understand has had I think 4 strokes now. Has no energy (Statins) last stroke she went back on them and never did a follow up NMR to see that nothing had changed (I got her a baseline one) so never got to see the proof they weren’t helping, only hurting. Still doesn’t eat right, all the same mistakes over and over again.

(Joey) #46

Sorry to hear this. It’s tough when folks we love don’t make what we believe are better choices. Been there; still am. No good answers.

#47

Hi Joey, I shared the last study regarding how low carb can be beneficial for those with heart issues, and could even make statins unnecessary, with my mom who, because she doesn’t have a firm enough grasp on english, struggled reading through it. However, from what I told her she then decided to do a bit of her own research, reading norwegian articles, and she found the one I posted a link to previously regarding a new hypothesis regarding the role of cholesterol. Now she’s reading up on it a bit more. Both my mom and MIL grew up with the goverment’s high carb, low fat diet advice, but my mom at least is willing to do a bit more research. She has a whole host of health complaints, which she attribute to old age, but she’s only 60. When I told her about IF she began reading up about that, and began time-restricted eating herself, so her mind can be open to new ideas.

#48

Hi lfod14, it’s hard when our moms suffer with a host of health issues, and we feel we could improve their health, but they just won’t listen to our advice. And when at the same time they feel entitled to give us advice about our WOEs, without any grasp of science or understanding of how it works, merely clinging to the same beliefs they’ve followed all their lives, it’s frustrating beyond. But we must remind ourselves we don’t have all the answers either, and we don’t know 100% if what we believe is true. Truths are subjective, and not even science can ascertain them as much as just get closer to them, and new science and new discoveries are born every minute.
I am grateful my mom who is 60, after talking to her more about my WOE, carnivore in my case, the science behind it, the damage sugar and carbohydrates can do, particularly the refined, that she now is doing a bit more research on that herself, trying to understand it a bit more. My MIL who is 70, is never going to change, she takes statins, and she’s been eating a lot of carbs and a lot of sugar, but so long as she’s eating vegetarian she thinks it’s healthy. She also swears by semi-skimmed milk, low fat everything, and margerine. Old beliefs are hard to sway. And the majority of people become emotinally attached to their WOEs and will defend them.

(Joey) #49

Same here. Low fat/high carb for most of my adult life + jogging 2-3 miles/daily. Yet I began feeling older and older as I hit 60 yrs old. Lots of accumulating symptoms.

So after considerable research, I cut out the carbs and began eating high fat. Ate like a pig (including pig :wink: Soon enough, every single symptom of “aging” disappeared. My lipid profile is “awesome” (per our internist).

It’s been over 3 years and I’ve never been healthier, more energetic, and symptom-free, and thoroughly enjoying what I eat.

Old dogs can learn new tricks. There’s hope for your Mom!

(Michael) #50

@never2late interesting idea. I will not go into the details of it for now, as I am in the midst of doing a deep dive, so I will when I get to it. But just for your fyi, here is a negative response https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8168348/ . Not sure I agree with the response, but more information/ideas are always good, even if you disagree with the content.

(Robin) #51

Michael, I have read through this and admittedly it is over my head. I was interested in the part bout inflammation perhaps being a symptom of high ldl as opposed to a cause…? I hope you will share your conclusion/summary with me after your deep dive.

I’ve been puzzling over my lipid and other tests with my doc. My last ones showed significant inflammation (as well as very high ldl which is not new nor surprising). We’re trying to find the cause of the high inflammation, as I have no symptoms. No issues with joints or aches etc etc… I feel great.

Unfortunately my nmr and hs-CRP showed the majority of my ldl molecules are of the small, dense variety. I was shocked, tbh.
Will be getting more labs in another month.

Sometimes I am tempted to just go with how I feel (fabulous) and forget the tests.

(Michael) #52

Majority small LDL, wow. Did you share the NMR results somewhere? If not, I am interested in any bloodwork you are willing to share, any and all really.

(Robin) #53

Michael, I’ll dm you. Pretty sure I still have pics of ll my reports. A lot to wade through. But I appreciate it.

(Robin) #54

@Naghite
Hey Michael, did you get all my records in the message? I can’t tell if all the pages went to you or just to me!

(Michael) #55

:+1:

#56

Hi Michael, I’ve read the report. Its authors state no conflict of interest, but who’s to say, as they are in favour of statins and mention Big Pharma as the solution to keeping the cholesterol in check, as to their idea of a healthy diet it’s PUFAs that’s favourable. And when I look up examples for PUFAs and am reading corn oil, soybean oil and safflower oil among others, promoting vegetable oils, no?

The report states PUFAs do not affect the cholesterol negatively. But there are other studies showing they do increase inflammation. My mom has been following this advice for years. Eat PUFAs. Use vegetable oils, and you’ll be healthy. And in terms of inflammation her body is full of it. Health complaint after health complaint. Admittedly she’s also far too fond of bread. I’m not saying this report is entirely wrong, and I am interested in the part about inflammation being the consequence of free cholesterol, and I will research that more … But stating no conflict of interest? I would be sceptical. I already knew when the hypothesis was put out it would be met with great resistance, like any new idea opposing old, established views in the medical society, but also because simply, there’s no money to earn in that hypothesis.

Studies stating the necessity of statins, on the other hand … And then there is the idea perpetually promoted by mainstream media that PUFAs, vegetable oils in general reduce inflammation and could help prevent illness, when the opposite appears to be true, in that, they indeed cause inflammation, and lead to metabolic disfunction. Science primarily gives us access (due to our lack of understanding) to a sea of confusion, confirmation bias and studies in favour and studies against our WOEs, through which we wade in the hopes of achieving some better understanding, and in the end, I feel it boils down to listening to the body more.

#57

Hi Robin, it’s puzzling in that, you are feeling great. But perhaps that is key, the way your body is feeling. Is there actually any sign of inflammation? Pains and aches? Because it’s certainly puzzling to me, if the report Michael posted is true, and inflammation is the consequence of free cholesterol or those small LDL particles, that no inflammation is actually recognised by the body.
I’m like you in that, although I try to follow science, a lot of it appears too complex. So I just try to get the gist without achieving that deeper understanding I would like.

When I began a ketogenic WOE, I was amazed at the lack of inflammation, the complete absence of it. My lipoedema pain and tenderness went, and also my muscle and joint pain went. That would to me suggest a food high in saturated fats would cause a reduction in inflammation, not an increase in it. Whereas on my high carb, low carb diet it was mainly PUFAs and my inflammation was sky-high.
My mom, however, is very concerned about saturated fats blocking arteries. Due to having discovered calcification in the arteries of her own heart. Of course, she’s been consuming PUFAs mainly for many years. So I am currently looking into as much research as I can about cholesterol. I believe Siobhan Huggins who is carnivore did a good bit of research on cholesterol, so will look up that. It does seem to me that both keto and carnivore significantly lowers inflammation, but what kind of effect it has on cholesterol and how that in turn would affect our bodies warrants more research.

One thing is very clear. For every study in the ketogenic eater’s favour there is a negative opposing view, and this is particularly true in a carnivore’s case. I suppose the only thing you can do Robin is at regular intervals getting your cholesterol checked, and then if you are lucky enough to have a doctor who supports your WOE and you otherwise feel great, to just monitor it over time. It may be it is a matter of accumulation and that the inflammation would not be enough to be noticed by anything but medical tests specifically looking for its markers, in the beginning. Keep us posted, and I hope you continue to feel great. I wish you vitality and health.

#58

For me it comes down to risk/reward.

Prior to keto (I’m maybe 90% carnivore) I was very overweight, I didn’t feel healthy and felt mildly depressed and unhappy. My bloods showed approaching pre diabetes and poor LDL, HDL and TG ratios.

Now I have lost a lot of weight, I feel healthy and much happier and sharper. In all honesty I have no idea what has happened to my blood lipids as my doctor will not test (!) because I refused statins.

But I have read extensively and am confident in myself that my diet is healthy. I may feel differently in the future but I don’t really care what my blood lipids are at the moment. If they are “bad” I still think the other health benefits outweigh the potential risk.

(Michael) #59

A doctor will not help a patient because the patient will not do as they suggest. The not helping seems counter to their oath and intent of the profession. They should be disciplined and sanctioned with that disgusting outlook. Sorry you have such a morally corrupt person as your doctor. Their job is to inform and educate, not mandate.

I am sorry you cut your leg off, but I told you working at your job was dangerous, so I will not help you now that you got hurt doing something dangerous. Sounds like a winnable law suit there and I see no difference here.

#60

Hi gaz3, it’s all a bit of a mystery. I was slim when I was on a very high carb, extremely low fat diet, as back then I shunned fat like the plague. I was battling chronic inflammation, and I was dealing with muscle fatigue and general fatigue, forgetfulness, and then I was struck by breast cancer. Which came as a real shock, because I believed myself to be healthy. Because I was slim, and knew nothing about fructose or insulin and metabolic function at the time. So I gave up sugar and refined carbohydrates. But I was still battling chronic inflammation, I had a lot of joint pain. It didn’t help that I was put on Tamoxifen. Yet, I was eating as healthily as my knowledge would allow me, so a lot of nuts, dark chocolate, dried fruits and fresh fruits, fruit and nut bars, wholemeal bread, and a variety of vegetables. I did allow myself a shop bought pizza, croissants, hot crossbuns and the like, at the weekends. But because most of the food I ate was minimally processed, or so I told myself, I believed this diet to be very healthy. But I was struggling with side effects of my Tamoxifen. I was dealing with daily body, muscle and joint aches.

Then I began to suspect lipoedema (which was later confirmed by diagnosis) and began researching keto. I was still very reluctant. But I was also feeling like the foods I was eating just weren’t good for me. And I thought, why not?
Upon starting keto, my lipoedema, body, muscle and joint aches pretty much went. Inflammation went. It felt amazing. And that pain has remained absent, so it irks me whenever I read studies stating the negative impact saturated fats have on one’s cholesterol, as I suppose I’ve become somewhat emotionally attached to my WOE, because it has greatly improved my quality of life, and seems a highly promising way to treat lipoedema.