High CAC Score

(Robin) #21

About a year ago, I also finally started taking a statin after 2 years keto and one carnivore.
I know it is against the general opinion here, but we each have to weigh all of our health factors and risks, and go with our gut.

(Mike Martinez) #22

thanks

(Bob M) #23

if the animal is a ruminant, the rumen of the ruminant converts the polyunsaturated fats to saturated fat. There’s not much difference between 100% grass fed beef and corn-fed beef. Is there some? Yes. Is it a huge amount? Not really.

As for slaughtering the animal, that’s a different story.

(Bob M) #24

For older women, it’s complex:

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https://agsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jgs.16302

And of course, you can find studies indicating statins should always be taken.

(Myth Buster ) #25

I would think seriously about prolonged fasting.

I mean more than 5 days every 2 weeks.

(Joey) #26

@mnl1 There’s a lot of discussion here (and I didn’t read every word) but I would strongly encourage you to do some additional specific research on CAC (“Agatston”) scores and calcium plaque density.

First of all, a CAC test (CT scan) only measures calcified plaque - which is the resulting scabbing over of prior soft plaque damage. Whereas soft plaque (not captured on a CAC CT scan) is the more dangerous unscabbed plaque at risk of dislodging - which is then where blockages in the heart, brain, elsewhere are likely to result.

Put differently, your hard calcified plaque is evidence of scabbing over of prior damage. Cholesterol plays a role in that scabbing - not in causing the damage itself. Sure, I’d rather not have bleeding … but if I did I’d rather have scabbing thereafter.

CalcDensityPlaque-Criqui-2014.pdf (323.7 KB)
CalcDensityPlaque-Criqui-2017.pdf (508.4 KB)
CalcDensityPlaque-Criqui-2021.pdf (110.7 KB)

Taking a statin will do nothing to reduce your risk of CVD. Yes, it will lower overall cholesterol (LDL and HDL included) but this is associated with increased overall mortality, not lower. :vulcan_salute:

[Separately, I would encourage you to learn more about the role of Vitamin D3 and Vitamin K2 in the process of increasing calcification of bones/teeth at the expense of calcification elsewhere - although that becomes a more nuanced issue if additional calcification is needed in the arteries due to ongoing damage. Reducing inflammation - e.g., through a restricted carb WOE - goes a long way in reducing arterial/systemic inflammation.]

(Edith) #27

What do you mean by “at the expense of calcification elsewhere”?

(Joey) #28

… twas in the midst of trying to clarify. Does the edit help?

(Edith) #29

I may just be being a little dense here. The vitamins D3 and K2 help keep the calcium from being deposited into places it doesn’t belong such as arteries and soft tissue. So, “at the expense of calcification elsewhere” is referring to the fact that the calcium gets put where it belongs (teeth and bones) and not put where it doesn’t belong (arteries and soft tissue)?

(Joey) #30

Nothing dense about the question at all! Although somewhat off the OP’s original topic and concern:

My understanding is that the availability and uptake of calcium involves a kind of homeostatic dynamic: there’s the possibility of too much and also of too little.

Few of us in the West have a genuine calcium deficiency … on the contrary, we often consume (and over-supplement) more calcium than our bodies truly need (or are even able to deposit where needed).

A combination of Vit D, K, and A work together to regulate the uptake of calcium. Too much calcium vis-a-vis levels of D, K & A will tend to overwhelm the uptake of calcium where it is “most” needed in an otherwise healthy body - namely, bones and teeth.

However, in the face of soft plaque arterial damage due to systemic inflammation, yes, calcium is needed for “scab”-like repair. But generally, required amounts will be readily availability for such purposes (since it’s present in the circulatory system).

But bones need the calcium to be redeposited ever more as we age in order to stave off osteoporosis. And that doesn’t happen nearly as effectively without those three vitamins mentioned above. [Studies of Japanese women and their ingestion of “natto” (super rich in K2) showed a strong association with higher vs lower levels of bone density health.]

(Bob M) #31

If you want a food source of K2, natto is it. I mean really it. As in one ounce of natto has more K2 (of a different type though) than 3/4 pound of cheese.

I’ve been making my own natto:

I’ve seen some people who think that the Japanese ingestion of natto is a main reason they tend to have long lives.

(Joey) #32

That’s how I understand it … natto is without competition in the food world for K2.

But after hearing that natto tastes like smelly old gym socks, I opted for the K supplementation route. So… how bad is it, really?

[Perhaps we should move this section of the thread to “Smelly Old Gym Socks” category?]

(Bob M) #33

I think it’s fine. But I am a former body builder, so I have drank/swallowed a lot of nasty stuff.

You can make it more palatable by adding soy sauce (I usually add), green onions, etc. The only thing I add is soy sauce.

If you’re close, you can get it from some locations:

NOTE: mine looks like beans, without a lot of the strings shown there. You’re supposed to mix it and it’ll get really stingy, but I don’t do that. Also, they say a “serving” is 3.5 ounces, but I eat a lot less per day.

Unfortunately, I’ve never seen it anywhere near me. It would be nice to try once instead of ordering a ton of it.

(Alec) #34

This.

(Kevin Ruther) #35

According to Ivor Cummings, it’s the progression in the CAC score that you need to monitor.

50% of people in a study that had a CAC score that increased by over 15% per year had heart events.

People who only progressed at 7 to 8% per year, but who also had a high score, saw about a 3% rate of heart events.

Ivor infers that the lower rate of progression suggest that the body is still repairing as it goes along.

Ivor says if they do everything right (eat real food, get vitamin D + Sun exposure, fasting) they can overcome the genetic sensitivity.
Source Video: https://youtu.be/GC488McH2eU?si=LKQBKCb30ZhZvNEY

(Joey) #36

Presumably, that repairing is the calcification of soft plaque, which doesn’t show up on a CT scan upon which a CAC Agatston score is based. Nor does the Agatston score factor in density of that scabbing calcified plaque.

My opinion after reading as much as I could find on this topic is that an Agatston score is an interesting starting point - but it provides less than half the story of what’s actually going on in terms of arterial-plaque related risk.

n=1 Disclaimer…

FWIW, my own (annual) CAC scores have both risen (reflecting reparation of pre-keto soft plaque damage) and have also fallen (as density has steadily increased reflecting decreasing surface area/volume of calcified plaque) - but after 5 yrs of carb-restriction, the scores have essentially stabilized at this time.

And as a LMHR, my total cholesterol would send shivers down the spine of an ill-informed doctor given how high it stays. Fortunately our internist is well-informed - taking note of my HDL well over 100 with Trigs in the 40s.

… and finally, back to @mnl1’s concern: statins have never been considered as a solution to anything seen in this labwork or CAC scores, nor has our family internist suggested otherwise.

(Kevin Ruther) #37

You clearly have more experience than me in this regards. Would you add/remove/change any of the actions suggested by Ivor on how to manage a high CAC score?

#38

Were your lipid panels high before keto? Family history? I assuming you are under the age of 60? Have you also done an ApoB test? A CAC score this high warrants action. Could there have been a mistake? Please seek out qualified medical doctors.
I would have a look at the work of Dr. Ethan Weiss, M.D. and Dr. Allan Sniderman, M. D.

(Geoffrey) #39

As one who raises cattle I can assure you that they are all grass fed or silage fed for 99% of their lifespan. It is only in the last few months they are put on a grain diet to put more fat on them.

(Edith) #40

This conversation may not be that off topic. Making sure one gets enough D3 and K2 allows the calcium to be absorbed like it’s supposed to instead of floating around in the bloodstream, settling into joints, soft tissues, etc. I imagine if calcium is needed to help scab up some arterial damage, it is not needed in large quantities. I’m sure the body is smart enough to funnel some Ca to scab over a plaque even if it’s being absorbed into teeth and bones.