Hidden cost of fasting

(Robert C) #21

There are two different issues here for refeeding:

  1. Avoiding pain. When you refeed, you want to start taking in food as fast as your body allows. Depending on the length (if shorter - like 3 to 5 days) you might be fine with some sauteed greens and a regular meal an hour later. Longer fasts might be better broken with some Kimchi - wait an hour - some greens - wait an hour - 4 ounces of meat - wait an hour and then eat the rest of a regular meal (i.e. just more meat and greens). You are simply trying to avoid gastrointestinal distress (which you might get anyway - even under this kind of scheme).
  2. Ensuring your body that you are not in food scarcity (to avoid metabolic slowdown). From the time you start refeeding you want to ensure you are not restricting calories. If your regular Keto day is around 2400 calories then, if eating 3 meals a day - start 800 with calorie meals - if 2 times a day - start with 1200 calories meals. Do not try to keep the number on the scale low by keeping calories low. Also, you want to avoid binging. It is very easy to start eating after a multi-day fast and have trouble stopping. You may have been thinking about all the foods you were going to break the fast with for many hours or a couple of days. You want to avoid the urge to “go wild” - not just because you are losing some of your gains but also, it can lead to becoming upset with yourself and you can fall into a spiral of overeating for a while.

It might be best to think of a (for example) 5-day fast as 8 days of controlled eating.

  • One day before the fast starts to ensure you are eating what you normally would on Keto. Specifically avoiding the “last meal” mentality. Having a big meal just before fasting really means your fasting is actually starting later (i.e. an 800 calorie breakfast and then fasting is very different from a 2400 calorie OMAD sized meal - which really means your fast is starting the next day).
  • Five days for fasting.
  • Two days of forcing yourself to stick with your normal meals on Keto (i.e. if you were averaging 2400 calories on Keto in the weeks leading up to the fast - cap your daily intake at 2400 for the 2 days following the fast). The reason is that - right after a fast - if you follow something like “moderate protein and fat to satiety”, you might really mess up. Think of the couple of days after a multi-day fast as time when you can’t trust your satiety signals.
#22

Wow. Very thorough reply and makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much. I had not even thought about “1.”

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #23

Thank you Ilana. I’ll be honest, I’m still not 100% sure about artificial sweeteners… I need more than “some evidence, with some people, sometimes”…
What I really need to go on and do, is get a blood meter, and do some personal testing. I think a decent meter and test strips (which only seem to be sold separately, is going to be like $40 or $50…
Maybe next week.

Oh but hey, I have actually cut way down on my flavored sparkling waters (with aspartame) and replaced them with 3/4’s water and 1/4 Gatorade Zero :wink:

(mole person) #24

There is actually a fair bit of evidence and none of it points to the effects only being in “some people, sometimes”. Where that stuff comes from is people here testing their glucose response to various sweeteners and concluding that if they don’t see a response there then they are fine with them. However, since the mode of action of artificial sweeteners on metabolism has never even been hypothesized to be mediated in any way through glucose it’s a completely pointless test that says nothing to what effects these non nutritive sweeteners are actually having.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #25

Ilana, please see the video link I just posted. I also just ordered a Blood Glucose test kit, free same day PU, and had to go to WalMart for some other stuff anyway. I’m going to personally do the same kind of testing they did, both with Splenda (which does contain a small amount of maltodextrose) and straight up liquid sucralose (25% sucralose and the rest water), and also, I’m going to test for Acesulfame potassium, which they missed.

But not expecting any different results than they reported.

IMPO, the biggest problems people have with artificial sweeteners are psychological. Personally speaking, I never cared how things seem, I care how they really are, based on the facts.

As for the whole “mode of action of artificial sweeteners on metabolism” that is so vague, and loopy kind of stuff, that I just wouldn’t worry about it. Just like farm raised salmon, grain-fed beef… all splitting hairs. Forget the little side stuff. Keeping my eye on the big picture ! Dirty keto all the way :wink:

(mole person) #26

I recommend taking a look at some of the science. It’s not vague at all. It’s been shown specifically to affect all of the following: lipogenesis, lipolosis, cellular glucose absorption and insulin response to other foods.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #27

Apparently, none of those things are a problem for me, as I eat quite a bit of artificial sweeteners, yet I’m right on track with my Keto. I’ve lost close to all the weight I wanted to, and I’m satiated most of the time. Not saying none of those things makes any tiny difference, just saying I believe them to be basically inconsequential to the big picture.

(mole person) #28

Everyone is different. There are lots of people that can lose 100% of their excess fat at 100 grams of carbs a day too. The fact that you are able to get to your goal with artificial sweeteners doesn’t mean those same sweetners might not cause another person to be unable to lose a single pound.

My suggestion was that the sweetners might have affected your lack of energy on your fast since they have an impact on lipolosis. I wasn’t saying no one has ever lost weight while consuming them. Jason Fung’s clinic recommends strongly against consuming them while fasting.

If you look around these forums you can find hundreds of posts of stalled people restarting losses after giving up non nutritive sweetners.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #29

I totally here you, and agree on all counts. You might be surprised to hear me say this, but I would totally consider cutting artificial sweeteners “if only while I was actually doing a fast” just to see for myself of it made a noticable difference.
Now then, no way would I cut out my sweet Keto deserts and treats just during my daily living !
Like I say, I feel like I have totally beat my rediculous cravings for stupid amounts of pure sugar and corn syrup… But as the same time, I still totally enjoy my Splenda sweetened coffee… Or a Splenda sweetened fat bomb or two… And I don’t feel like I need any more sweets after that.

#30

@FishChris … Does your girlfriend travel at all, for work or holiday? I’m just asking because I find that when my husband is out of town on a business trip - that is one of the absolute easiest times for me to fast. Most of the kids can fend for themselves, so I don’t worry about cooking for them so much. My hubby has a pretty demanding schedule, so I try to cook meals or prep some for him to eat if I’m at work. But, when I’m fasting - like you - I find it a little more challenging to cook for him. I’ve been trying to find both the time and opportunity to fit in another extended fast. So, since he is going on an 8 day trip this month, I was considering doing a 7 day fast. Its perfect timing, as I have a massive wedding to attend a couple weeks later- and really need some skin tightening autophagy to happen. =) Just throwing that idea out there- in case there is a window of opportunity for you to try the same.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #31

Sounds like you listened to Dr. Berry’s video.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #32

No, she really doesn’t. She is definitely a “home girl” :slightly_smiling_face: I mean, she goes out for days and evenings a lot for shows and such, but any kind of longer trips she has made were with me.
But I mean, as far as she is concerned, I can eat, or not eat anything I want, and she is completely supportive. She knows I have a plan, and she’s all behind me :slightly_smiling_face:

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #33

Although I think Dr.Berry is great, I really didn’t take that from him. I’ve just always been a “skip the small stuff, and get straight to the stuff that matters most” kind of guy… Then later, maybe you can try to fine tune some stuff to see if it makes any difference.

Not just with Keto, but rather, about every big idea I’ve ever attempted in my life.

And just to reiterate, I know their are the scientific types who thrive on the fine details, but we must stop to consider that there are a lot of folks who just don’t want to think that hard, and if they think Keto has to be this complicated, they will just give up before they even give it a real shot.

Keto can be simple, and still work quite well :wink: