Hi Carb Plus High Fat

(Alec) #21

Where did this pyramid come from? The USDA.
Why? They had to get the US population to eat the overproduction of grains in the US.
What medical or trial evidence was there to support this diet? None.
What has been the outcome? Obesity and T2D epidemic

#22

So SAD is the guide, not how people eat (very badly, tons of sugary overprocessed things and so on)?
We have a similar one. We ignore it, pretty much and pity schoolchildren (last time I heard they didn’t even get a salt shaker… good it’s very easy to bring with us).

I can’t interpret servings but I am sure I never would, it’s something my mind refuses to think about.

Beans and meat in the same group. Strange. (They aren’t in the same role even for my SO. He needs his protein when he eats beans. Beans is the carby side dish 1. As he always eat them with grains.) But the egg isn’t with the milk, I can appreciate that…

No idea what it means in grams but still seems pretty bad (to me. my SO may eat vaguely like this? Just with WAY more protein. But he doesn’t even eat much protein… IDK then. I would need grams. He eats fatty but all groups except vegs and fruits have fat in the pic. Well, only the bread from the bottom but if I bake the bread, I can put plenty of it, trust me… Yeah I like to interpret rules in my own way…). But who eats this way (if we interpret it as not high-fat) and why? Americans surely eat WAY fattier. Hungarians definitely do, to the chagrin of whoever want to push things on us. And French beat even us especially when it comes to butter…

I never saw a pyramid that suited me. I am far even from the carnivore ones, even now. I skip the bottom layer, to begin with…

Mine is (on carnivore but I am normally close to that)…
Bottom: meat. Middle: Egg. Upper: dairy. And a barely visible, minuscule top (unless I have a butter stage at the moment): added fat. I actually miss a negative fat intake in the program I use when I track lately as I don’t eat added fat but I eat less fat than what my meat contains originally.
I eat every group every day and I couldn’t care about the “servings”. It’s for average anyway, right? They don’t expect people eating similarly every day…?

I am curious about guides vs how people eat, I researched it for my country so I have some knowledge about it. We totally “mess up” the fat and don’t eat much fish (of course not, it’s expensive with little variety. I enjoy the effort to tempt us, there are so nice sales sometimes… I still wouldn’t eat it often for multiple reasons).

Maybe but isn’t this the guide in a big part of the world? It surely just like ours as far as I remember. The groups and the pyramid sounds similar, I don’t have any idea what servings are. It’s more like “3-5 times a day” here. They are big on dairy and fruit and vegs and there is a push towards low-fat (it won’t happen) and sometimes veganism (fat chance :smiley: you can pry the fatty pork from our cold, dead hands. but eggs and butter won’t lose popularity either I guess).

I don’t think people ever needed push to eat grains. It’s a super popular food since ages. Basic.
People ate HCHF long ago too, it’s not the main reason for the obesity epidemic. It surely doesn’t help in many cases but it’s one, not even very big part of the picture as far as I can tell.

(B Creighton) #23

The Egyptians had a fairly high carb diet, and many of them were fat with poor dental health. I do eat some grains, but I eat a small amount of whole grains. I now consider hemp hearts to be a “superfood” but it is probably not considered a grain - and it’s not going to be real healthy if adopted as the mainstay of the diet… However, refined carbs largely from refined grains are a huge part of the obesity epidemic, and I believe a major reason for gluten intolerance becoming so widespread. Refined grains are in a TON of foods. Refined breads, pizza crust, pastries, and morning cereals…at least as Alec is pointing out here in the states. And they are a huge part of the obesity epidemic… the other part being fat. Way too much fat from the wrong sources. However, I will also say even the refined carbs pale in comparison to the other driver of obesity… far too much fructose. The SAD is drowing in these ingredients resulting in poor oral health, poor intestinal health, and poor metabolic health.

(KM) #24

“My issue with portions of the above thread pertains to this notion that the glycemic index of, say, an apple, is different if you eat it with, say, a steak.”

I think the theory is that, exactly. That if you eat the apple and the steak at the same time, then the main problem with the apple, a really fast dose of sugar --> insulin, is mitigated. The glucose in the apple gets dispersed and diluted by the fat and protein. It’s not that the glucose is any less, just that it hits the bloodstream more slowly. If you feel that the carbs are just as much of a problem whether they’re a slow glucose drip or a glucose mainline injection, then you’re absolutely right, there’s no difference - it’s not like the glucose doesn’t get there eventually.

(Joey) #25

Where is this belief that adding fat to carbs somehow mitigates the damage otherwise done by carbs?

While HCLF is far from ideal for sustainable health (carbs remain a non-essential “macronutrient”), it is still better than a HFHC diet - which leads to obesity, metabolic syndrome, T2D, CVD, etc.

If anyone truly believes that adding more fat to an otherwise high carb diet will mitigate the adverse health effects of those carbs, then go for it. But if you keep this up, don’t be surprised if you become obese, develop fatty liver disease, flirt with prediabetes, T2D, CVD, etc.

This is what the great “American Diet” experiment we’ve been subjected to has illustrated - across cultures, continents, and ethnicities.

Please don’t inflict this thinking on yourself. If you must eat high carb, then you’d be wise to watch your dietary fat intake. The combination is deadly over time.

:vulcan_salute:

(Chuck) #26

I have tried counting calories and not thinking about the nutrition, I have counted calories and micronutrients, I have fasted, I have tried strick keto, and way too many other diets. You know what is finally working for me? Listening to the needs of my body. Meaning learing to balance my metabolism and my body’s natural hormonal requirements. You know what when I do that my body becomes happy, satisfied, and I eat less food. You see I have learned one huge thing, processed carbs, and refined flour is the problem along with refined table sugar. For me the problem isn’t fresh fruit or vegetables. It is fast food, candy and desserts, and anything designed to make my hormones go crazy for more of the crap our food industry creates in their labs. I do stay away from from fruit juice but I eat fruit. It is making the choice to go back to eat what comes from nature and not what comes from some factory.

(KM) #27

I actually agree with you, I don’t think high carbs are a good idea, period. My body likes being in ketosis and that doesn’t happen for me with high carbs no matter the timing or combo. But if it is high insulin spikes that cause the arterial damage leading to repair / cholesterol plaques, then I suppose flattening that spike via slower glucose absorption might have some benefit.

(KM) #28

This is close to my belief too. I’m closer to carnivore, but my suspicion is that it’s what we do to the food (either genetically or in processing it), plus the amount we eat of things we’d never have had such access to pre-agriculturally, that’s the real problem.

(Chuck) #29

I grew up on a farm, got away from it after school, but since I moved to our home here in Central Arkansas, I have made it a point to find home grown, farm grown and small farm grown products, dairy, meat, fruits, vegetables, and eggs. Yes it can be a little higher but the quality is so much better, and it pays off in less medical costs. I am 76 years old, never been a hospital patient, and now I am prescription drug free, and I believe it is due to better quality food. My wife and I seldom eat out at a restaurant, no fast food, and my wife is a great cook. Even when I tease her about cooking Italian most of the time.

#30

I pretty much agree but with the quote from me too: people didn’t need a push to eat grains, they did it by themselves. Sometimes due to poverty, sometimes availability but people really like their grains anyway.
Even I love bread (way more than on high-carb, well it’s quite exotic and forbidden fruit now… but super tasty with a wonderful texture anyway, the right kind of bread I mean) and I don’t like the vast majority of non-carnivore food at this point (including almost all breads).
It has nothing to do with its healthiness. Some of us do need to stay away from bread, I do that almost all the time.

Refined (or any) grains surely have a role in obesity but they alone wouldn’t be that bad. I blame many other things. Like added sugar and many other things that make the starchy things even more tempting for some (I prefer my starches without such things, thank you very much. but even I liked certain treats especially much. my weakness is certain flavorings. and textures I can’t imitate. there are crackers too good at both at once. I still can stay away easily at this point but I understand the temptation).

Bread is way too easy to eat for some of us so yes, it’s quite possible it’s a bigger part of the obesity epidemic for people who don’t find it satiating (and don’t have restrictions?). As we can just eat and eat and eat, 10 slices or more… My SO finds bread very satiating (about as much as anything else) and not tempting alone at all (or with butter). Bread is just his side dish. So he never eats much of it and if he wouldn’t eat it (he had those years), he would just eat some other grains. But if the bread is sweet, he seriously overeats, despite everything (like his strong disclipline and motivation when it’s about his figure).
Of course I don’t know what matter how much but there are many factors. Lack of exercise, too easy availability of treats… And even if flour is the problem for someone, amounts matter a lot.

(MC) #31

The thinking is probably more towards the slowing of the gut, therefore slower and lower glucose spike.

But you’re right, I’ve never seen anything that suggest consuming fat with carbs blunts the insulin response. And then the body has to deal with the glycolysis v lipolysis conundrum when faced with both food groups. HCHF is never a good idea.

(Joey) #32

I guess I remain unclear on this assumption - it may or may not be true.

I wonder if someone might be able to point me in the direction of some supporting science. Specifically, does adding fat into the stomach along with carbohydrate slow down the absorption of the carb?

Let’s assume so… Then how would slowing down digestion keep the increase in serum glucose at a lower level than it would otherwise reach? I would’ve guessed that slowing digestion would produce a higher serum level of glucose for a longer period of time.

Blood sugar being higher for longer is never better than lower for shorter.

Still confused :thinking:

#33

It is when it’s the only option (or starving). My SO can’t eat any other way, he tried and it felt horrible for him (he tried HFLC, he can’t try low-fat, it’s as impossible for him as for me). While HCHF is apparently quite great for him. We will see, I am curious how we will feel 5-7 decades later :slight_smile: Our woe hardly can change very much at this point, we did what we could and we both are quite health-conscious, listening to our bodies.
I believe HCHF is ideal for SOME people, at least. Most people eat HCHF and it works for some, after all. Of course it is not just any HCHF, health is important so we should eat the right things for our individual body.
And I accept the choice of eating tasty and more or less okay things and not wanting to live long or something even though I am very very far from that type of thinking. Each to their own. If not eating HCHF if suffering and eating HCHF is not at all (at the moment, who knows the future, I get it), HCHF may be the right thing to do for some.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #34

It’s not a conundrum, in my view. There are two issues, here: First, hyperglycaemia can be deadly, so the body uses insulin to get it out of the blood stream. One way that happens is that the liver turns excess glucose into triglycerides and ships them off in chylomicrons to be stored in the adipose tissue.

This leads to the second issue: When edible carbohydrates are available in nature, it’s in the autumn, when animals want to fatten up for winter. So the goal of the body is to store fat, not metabolise it. Think of a bear eating berries, so as to fatten up for hibernation. There’s no need for metabolising fat, because there is plenty of glucose intake to fuel the muscles and the brain.

(Joey) #35

Precisely.

The problem humanity has created for ourselves is providing access to nonstop year-round harvests on a global basis.

In essence, we are fattening ourselves up while keeping our bodies from experiencing those seasons that lack a natural harvest in our own locale. As a result, every day is harvest day down at the global supermarket.

It’s no coincidence that carb-loading is also how we fatten up livestock before the slaughter. Ironically, most of our friends and neighbors do the same to themselves (with similar outcomes).

#36

Fat sources are great for fattening up too, many animals use that route. It’s hard to get much sugar from wild fruits, after all. And carnivores need the extra fat too.

(Jane) #37

A nice formula on how to get fat! :laughing:

(Geoffrey) #38

You are 100% correct.
It was had always has been an agenda driven narrative.

(Berta) #39

So if insulin is the storage hormone, then anytime you are in a surplus of calories (in the face of insulin, ie: high carb)then it is going to store those calories as fat. Whether you are in a surplus from added fat or surplus from added carbs, my understanding is that in the face of excess insulin, you will be storing any excess calories you are not burning. Now, whether part of that goes into your muscles as glycogen, probably depends on if your muscles are in a deficit of glycogen ( from being active or low carb part of cycle) so if you are just coming off of a low carb cycle and your muscle storage glycogen is depleted some of those excess carbs may go into your muscles first especially if you are an active person. Whereas, an inactive person it most likely will go straight to your belly or ass :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes::yum:

(KM) #40

I think a big piece of this puzzle is, “in the face of excess insulin”. This doesn’t happen unless there are excess carbs pushing up blood glucose levels (likely combined with insulin resistant cells further raising insulin levels.) So excess fat by itself is not going to drive fat storage.